BB-01 open succession game--fast space race

[brasilbear]

I recently discovered my civ3 discs and reinstalled them onto my w7 laptop. I missed Civ3 more than I thought. So i decided to try to get back into civ3 before i get back to the US and get a copy of civ5 (as an aside i didn't like civ4 so i'm a little hesitant about civ5--anyone got an opinion?) Going to start this series simply before moving on to other variants/options. Decided to start at monarch to give lower players a chance to join in.

anyway........going to start a little series of open succession games, to improve my overall game play and to have a little fun. Open succession means anyone to takes it plays its. First player gets 20 turns, everyone else 10 turns. Since my openings still need a little work, I'm leaving the opening to someone else.

BB-01 is fast space race.....
MAP STATS
all random


CIV STATS
level: Monarch
all else random

All victory conditions are enabled, but we are going to the stars!!! I want to learn how to push a tech pace, and really learn how to prebuild to get there as fast as possible.

save, opening screen shot, and roster/interested players in the next post.

 

[brasilbear]

As luck would have it....Babylon

 

[Elephantium]

I'd like to join. I've been hesitant about joining any new games recently due to real life schedules, but I think this one will fit in nicely

I'd move 1E and settle there. It gives us access to both BGs eventually, and it gives us the river BG as soon as we grow. Plus, we have two forest tiles to work for settler factory purposes.

Also, the mountains will give us lots of shields once we reach max size in our capital.

 

[brasilbear]

why don't you just start us off?

I agree with the move to the east, the worker should in my opinion

(1) stay and start a road then irrigate
(2) start on the bonus grasslands depending on what settling shows us.

like I mentioned, I tend to waste moves/turns at the start because I can never see optimal moves. my starts are strong, but not great.

 

[Acronym]

I've skimmed through a couple of Succession Games for some tips, as I'm not a very strategic player, but I think this is the first one I've seen start since coming here.

Looking forward to lurking on this one, and maybe a bit down the line, if you're short on players and don't mind a relative newbie, would happily play 10 turns or so.

 

[brasilbear]

I've skimmed through a couple of Succession Games for some tips, as I'm not a very strategic player, but I think this is the first one I've seen start since coming here.

Looking forward to lurking on this one, and maybe a bit down the line, if you're short on players and don't mind a relative newbie, would happily play 10 turns or so.

play with us, its the best way to learn. if no one takes the start soon, we can play it together. i can win on monarch 95% of the time, but i want to get faster. if you aren't used to this level i can help you out.

What do you think about the start? any ideas?

 

[brasilbear]

(1) how do you speed up a tech race?

(2) on monarch we can out research the AI by the Middle Ages, so how do we keep the AI research relevant?


Post more questions as I have them...

 

[Lanzelot]

Haven't played Babylon for quite some time, so if you'll have me, I'll join. And I would be willing to play the start.

Moving E is fine with me as well. The worker should start irrigating right away:
T0: Settler moves, I(4)
T1: 3f, I(3)
T2: 6f, I(2)
T3: 9f, I(1)
T4: 13f
T5: 17f
T6: 21f and grows.

If we build a road first, it'll take 8 turns (until T7) to grow.

Research pottery? And what to build? First a warrior to get early contacts or start a granary-prebuild right away? (We will probably get Pottery (53beaker) in 11 turns (5x4 + 1x5 + 4x6 + 7 = 56), and due to the low-shield wheat tile we won't be able to collect 40s in these 11 turns, so we can use the barracks as prebuild.) So that would work perfectly. With an early warrior however, we might get lucky and find someone who trades us Alphabet?!

 

[Lanzelot]

The answer to your questions is basically: you have to trade like crazy, even gift them your techs, in order to prevent them from researching something that you already know.

(By the way: on Monarch with a start like this, we should be out-researching the AI by the middle of the ancient age, not by the middle age... )

 

[Elephantium]

I'd prefer not to take the very first turnset, honestly. Getting Pottery early is a good plan; we'll want a granary ASAP.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, if no one else turns up in the next day or so, I will take the first turn-set.
Meanwhile we should discuss in more detail, what we want to do.

The first important point we need to determine: will we lose any growth by building a warrior before the granary?
Growth will happen in the following turns: 6, 11, 16, 21, 26 etc. (Unless we find another food bonus in the fogg, of course.) The first warrior would take 8 turns (6x1 + 2x2), but in later turns (starting at size 3) we 'll make 5spt, so the lost 10s for the warrior can then be caught up in just 2 turns. And if we find out that without the warrior we'll finish the granary in T22, while with the warrior it will take until T24, then of course we should build the warrior first! The warrior will gain us a big return on investment in terms of trading contacts and map information (important for planning the layout of our core), while the granary will only cost extra maintenance but will not give any benefit, as the first time where it will be effective, is when we grow in T26.
On the other hand, if we find out that without the warrior the granary can be ready in T20, while otherwise it takes till T22, then we should omit the warrior.
Any volunteer for an excel sheet?!

Here are some general strategic rules for a fast research game:

1. As already said, we need to get trading going as early as possible. This means we need an early coastal town and 1-2 curraghs.
2. We are not expansionist, but still we may get a tech or two from a hut. That means scouting warriors are important (not only for getting the continental trading contacts). Also, if we find an expansionist nation, we need to make sure to keep them up-to-date in terms of techs, so that if they pop a tech from a hut, it'll be one that we don't know yet, and we can later trade for it.
3. We should give good deals (and even gifts) to the strong nations that look like they are capable of doing some serious research. The weak nations which won't come up with anything useful in time anyway, can be milked for their cash (to cover our own deficit budget).
4. We need to keep this world peaceful. War is poison to every AI's research capability.... (That means no fishing for war happiness... )
5. On the other hand we need to conquer a big portion of territory and ICS it asap. The sooner we get those science farms up, the sooner we'll hit 4-turn research. This slightly contradicts the previous two points. So we need to pick a weak nation as our victim that wouldn't contribute to the science effort anyway, and we need to keep it a "local war".

Edit: oh, by the way: keeping the AI up-to-date in terms of tech does of course not include Writing...! Nothing would be worse than an AI popping Philosophy from a hut and spoiling our slingshot!

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I would rather suggest moving the settler southish, read SE, SW or S. The reason is the tundra to the north. I would think it advisable to leave a little distance between the Capital and tundra so there is a little bit more room for a decent core city.

Since SE and S both have forests the shields of which should be very handy I am in favor of moving SW. That might put us out of range of the mountains, but mountains are not such strong tiles anyway.


I would also suggest building a warrior for exploration and then building a settler with the aid of a chopped forest immediately. We can still build a granary afterwards, once we have pottery. An early settler is as good IMO as an early granary, provided we find a good, food rich spot for the second city. The chances are high.
So the worker moves would be:
irrigate the weath (4);
road the wheat (3);
move to a forest (1);
chop the forest (4)

And the worked tiles:
1. none
2. a forest (1 food; 3 shields); production to warrior
3. wheat (4 food; 4 shields)
[irrigation completes]
4. irrigated wheat (8 food; 5 shields);
5. irrigated wheat (12 food; 6 shields)
6. irrigated wheat (16 food; 7 shields)
[road completes]
7. irrigated wheat + forest; the Capital hits size two ; the warrior completes. (0 food, 0 shields)
8. irrigated wheat + BG; (4 food; 2 shields); production to settler
... continue till the settler is done. (I have played it through with a similar start, and we'd have the settler in 3250 BC. The capital drops to size 1 when the settler completes, but it will have 12 food in the box and quickly regrow to size 2.)



As first researth I think Mysticism would be not a bad idea. It is not too expensive, nobody starts with it and hence offers a decent shot at an SGL. I'd stay away from researching Pottery, since Expansionist Civs start with it, and it is not unlikely that you run into a Scout somewhere. Or that you get it from a goody hut.

 

[brasilbear]

Go ahead and take it Lanzelot, 20 turns is standard at the beginning right?

The first important point we need to determine: will we lose any growth by building a warrior before the granary?

I think warrior first to find optimal city spots and our neighbors. open up the map a bit before we really get rolling.

I would rather suggest moving the settler southish, read SE, SW or S. The reason is the tundra to the north. I would think it advisable to leave a little distance between the Capital and tundra so there is a little bit more room for a decent core city.

Since SE and S both have forests the shields of which should be very handy I am in favor of moving SW. That might put us out of range of the mountains, but mountains are not such strong tiles anyway.
.........
So the worker moves would be:
irrigate the weath (4);
road the wheat (3);
move to a forest (1);
chop the forest (4)
.........

As first researth I think Mysticism would be not a bad idea. It is not too expensive, nobody starts with it and hence offers a decent shot at an SGL. I'd stay away from researching Pottery, since Expansionist Civs start with it, and it is not unlikely that you run into a Scout somewhere. Or that you get it from a goody hut.

this is what i mean by not playing optimally. I would have moved east to save the forests, then been locked in by the tundra.

i agree with moving the settler SW or SSW (settling on one of the forests) then: (1) warrior-then settler (2) depending on how the map opens up, set up a settler factory

i would prefer to get to republic then demo (being a religious civ we don't suffer anarchy right?)--so the phil slingshot would be my choice.

 

[templar_x]

i see your point about the tundra, but in this case, i would wander 1E as well. the reason is the way the river goes. with the capital 1E, and given there is no other food source, there will be an nice 2nd city location on the river 3 tiles away, which can share the wheat once the granary is built.

settler first would then be a very likely strategy for me also. it of course depends which tiles become visible once the capital is founded.

t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

That is tundra in the north? I thought it would be coast. But you are right: we are pretty much at the top of the minimap... my fog-gazing skills need improving...

Settler first makes sense only if there is another food bonus around, I think. As long as we don't have a granary, we can't share the wheat with a second town anyway, so that would be one point in favor of "granary before settler". Perhaps warrior first is the most flexible then: while the warrior is scouting, we can still make up our mind on whether we first build the granary or an early settler.

Are SGLs on? I always play without SGL (mainly COTM... ), so I'm not used to taking them into account. Consequently it would never cross my mind to research a useless tech like Mysticism just for a chance at an SGL...
Even if SGLs are on, I would not go for Mysticism. The SGL-chance for a scientific nation is only 5%, right? So with a probability of 95% we won't get an SGL and all we achieved was delaying our switch into Republic by let's say 10 turns?! That can't be worth it.
And I think pottery is too important to leave it to chance. In every GOTM/COTM where I took a risk and hoped to meet someone with pottery, I didn't meet anybody and ended up getting a granary way too late, damaging the entire game. Remember: this is Continents, not Pangea. By Murphy's Law we'll be alone on our continent (ok, perhaps I'm too used to civ_steve's maps... ), but even with 2 neighbors it's too much of a gamble for me to hope for trading Pottery on time.

 

[Lanzelot]

move to a forest (1);
chop the forest (4)

Are you sure you want to chop a forest that early?
I think the river BG is much more important: gives more shields in the long run than those meagre 10s from the chop and is also important for our fast research! Getting Republic 2-3 turns faster is worth more than a few shields. (Especially if we find only a simple grassland under the forest. You see: I'm not a gambler-type... )

Also we will be growing quite quickly, so need to get tiles improved quickly. My order of preference would be: wheat, river BG, BG, and then a forest (or even another river GL before the forest?! This then depends on our production queue: e.g. if two turns on the granary wouldn't make a difference, a GL first, if we need the gran faster, then a forest, or even two.)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Are you sure you want to chop a forest that early?
I think the river BG is much more important: gives more shields in the long run than those meagre 10s from the chop and is also important for our fast research! Getting Republic 2-3 turns faster is worth more than a few shields. (Especially if we find only a simple grassland under the forest. You see: I'm not a gambler-type... )

Also we will be growing quite quickly, so need to get tiles improved quickly. My order of preference would be: wheat, river BG, BG, and then a forest (or even another river GL before the forest?! This then depends on our production queue: e.g. if two turns on the granary wouldn't make a difference, a GL first, if we need the gran faster then a forest, or even two.)

Yeah, I would be in favor of such an early chop if you opt for a settler. The ten shields help you to get the settler a few turn earlier, which in turn means more shields, because you have two cities sooner. In the same fashion it also means more beakers sooner.

Although, if you opt for a granary rather than settler, I guess you are right about improving a BG before chopping a forest. Although I would tend towards improving the wheat, then a BG, and then a forest chop. The ten shields should help with the granary.

 

[templar_x]

LE said it about the early chop and the settler. 1/3 of the settler cost in shields is not too lousy...

@ Lanze - simply comparing settler first vs gran first along the values AFTER THE FACTORY IS READY is a common mistake. it misses two important things:
- the 2nd town already provides food, shields and commerce, while you still would not have the gran in the cap!
- especially if you are not playing an IND civ, your workers will not be able to keep pace with the city growth, like here. so you gain the advantages of another town, while you will NOT immediately can set up your factory 100% often by the time the gran is built. and while your cap regrows, it will just in time be able to work fully improved tiles, thus getting back some of the time lost (relatively) on the way to its own gran.

therefore, quite regularly and especially in situations like this one, settler first seems still better or at least just as good as granary first. with another food bonus, settler first of course becomes a no-brainer anyway.

t_x

Edit: plus, a normal grass under the forest would be needed as well - for a 3-4 combo factory, you need 3 BG and 1 normal grass anyways for optimal output. the 1 extra BG one cannot see yet then has to be found somewhere else.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, taking LE's and t_x's advice into account, let me summarize the current "plan of action":

Worker action: irrigate & road wheat, mine & road river BG, then do some more detailed calculations on whether we want a forest chop or first take care of the other BG, (also depending on whether we decide for settler first or granary first).

Build order: warrior for getting a better picture of our land and then start collecting shields, either for the early settler or for the granary.
One other idea that just crossed my mind: if our tile improvements cannot keep up with our growth rate, perhaps it would be a good idea to produce a quick worker after the initial warrior? Then we would have enough worker power for getting our tiles ready and choping a forest at the same time. I'll pause after the first 10 turns to give us some time for discussing that idea.

Research: Elephantium and myself favored Pottery, LE would gamble for an SGL and start with Mysticism. I think we should play it safe. We want Pottery, we want the sling shot and both asap even in the "worst case scenario". So let's do it straight away and not fool around.

City location: t_x's argument about the river convinces me more. 1E we can have at least two more cities on the river: the position 3SW already mentioned by t_x and one more to the SE on the other end of the mountain range. That's very powerful for fast research, while we don't know yet, whether that 1 extra distance to the tundra would make that much of a difference.

 

[Lanzelot]

Turnlog:

T000: Settler 1E, worker irrigates.
The good news are: two more BGs get into sight! The bad news: the eastern coast appears in distance 3. That'll be very tight for our first ring...

I'll pause now, because perhaps we want to invest a second settler move to go to the optimal capital site, see red cross: