High Production Low Commerce Start

[Fippy]

I'm pretty sure you do the get the worst enemy diplo penalty even if you haven't met them yet. That said, trading as soon as possible is still the way to go IMO, especially if you have your 2x Astro bulb ready to go and are waiting to trade for Calendar.

I played around on an Iso map, and found Willy first who was the worst enemy of Boudi (and at war).
Willy had only 2 cities left and i traded ~5 techs with him (perfect scenario..everything like maths, calendar, alpha).
Then i met Boudi and surprise, no penalty.

I play with Buffy, maybe it got fixed there?

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Sure. Ignore what the cities are doing as I automated everything a few turns before the end. Basically main island was building cavs, galleons or frigates non-stop since the start of the first war. (Edit: Maybe they paused to build levees). A little bit of great person micro here and there. Most of the buildings on main island should be stuff I built I think. All captured cities were automated from the start (too lazy to micro more...).

Thanks! At this stage I'm primarily interested in signposts - tech order, dates (for techs, wonders and cities, etc), city location, that kind of thing.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but after a quick look, here's a couple of things that stood out to me:

1. Tile improvements.
I'm seeing a LOT more windmills and farms than I usually build. Did you do that, or was it automated workers? Did they start off as mines and cottages? If so, when did you make the switch?

2. 90+ Cavalry from 10 main island cities?! How on earth are you getting those units up and still working enough commerce-rich tiles to keep your tech rate above the AI? I'll have another look at the save, but I'm not sure where to look to answer that particular question (if it's even there).

3. It looks like your second city was a production focused settle. I don't think I've got an actual question here, but given that my primary problem with this map is commerce, I find that interesting.

I'll have a play around with it and see if I can replicate (or at least get close) to some of your results. No doubt I'll post where I'm failing, and see if anyone here can suggest ways to fix it. Thanks again.

 

[Izuul]

I played around on an Iso map, and found Willy first who was the worst enemy of Boudi (and at war).
Willy had only 2 cities left and i traded ~5 techs with him (perfect scenario..everything like maths, calendar, alpha).
Then i met Boudi and surprise, no penalty.

I play with Buffy, maybe it got fixed there?

I could just be wrong

 

[jorissimo]

I know these questions aren't for me, but:

1. Tile improvements.
I'm seeing a LOT more windmills and farms than I usually build. Did you do that, or was it automated workers? Did they start off as mines and cottages? If so, when did you make the switch?

I basically ignore hills for most of the game. In the state property era hills are milled and flatland is shopped. The net result is more production as compared to mines, which cost more food.

3. It looks like your second city was a production focused settle. I don't think I've got an actual question here, but given that my primary problem with this map is commerce, I find that interesting.

My second city was also production- focused. If you went Pottery before AH and BW, commerce shouldn't have been a problem with that riverside capital.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I know these questions aren't for me, but:

Always happy for all the input I can get. Eventually, something might click for me.

commerce shouldn't have been a problem with that riverside capital.

Until BW, there are only 2 riverside grass tiles for cottaging. Is that really enough?

 

[jorissimo]

Until BW, there are only 2 riverside grass tiles for cottaging. Is that really enough?

To me it's more about securing Pottery before commerce becomes an issue, as opposed to still having to research it by the time it becomes an issue. TW is also quite nice to get the trade route with city 2 up and speeding up settler movement.

 

[pmarc]

I also wouldn't call @aitkensam 's city 2 a production city, both his capital and 2nd city have a mix of commerce and production, whereas @jorissimo moved the capital for more river and focused more on production for city 2. Both of them went for the rich area SW of capital for 3rd city which is a good choice, especially with a CRE leader settling through the middle of the island like that fogbusts a lot of land. The distance maintenance is more than offset from that gold + having pottery researched.

The key idea here is to delay BW if you want to start with AH, which you probably do given those pig tiles. Cottages are higher priority than non-resource mines, but mines are still fine to keep your workers busy and provide the needed hammers before BW. (It helps that Sury gets so many early game production discounts too.)

 

[aitkensam]

Thanks! At this stage I'm primarily interested in signposts - tech order, dates (for techs, wonders and cities, etc), city location, that kind of thing.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but after a quick look, here's a couple of things that stood out to me:

1. Tile improvements.
I'm seeing a LOT more windmills and farms than I usually build. Did you do that, or was it automated workers? Did they start off as mines and cottages? If so, when did you make the switch?

2. 90+ Cavalry from 10 main island cities?! How on earth are you getting those units up and still working enough commerce-rich tiles to keep your tech rate above the AI? I'll have another look at the save, but I'm not sure where to look to answer that particular question (if it's even there).

3. It looks like your second city was a production focused settle. I don't think I've got an actual question here, but given that my primary problem with this map is commerce, I find that interesting.

I'll have a play around with it and see if I can replicate (or at least get close) to some of your results. No doubt I'll post where I'm failing, and see if anyone here can suggest ways to fix it. Thanks again.

1. The improvements were manual. Some of the hills would have been after all important tiles already had improvements and I tend to default to windmills as they'll be better later. I didn't do much replacing stuff with workshops in this game as I had enough pump to roll everyone with cavalry but normally I would switch as much as possible to workshops (excepts villages and towns) without running out of food.
2. I upgraded 10-15 knights to cavs. First 10-20 were probably whipped in cities without lots of good tiles. Then it was just caste system with state property. The wars were pretty long so the numbers build up over time... Keeping up tech-wise I guess is number of villages/towns plus cheap libraries. Some trading but not all that much on emperor.
3. From what I remember it got gold and pigs in second ring. They were the tiles I wanted plus a few river cottages. So really it was commerce focussed. Only got them in second ring as creative and it left space for a nice city on the coast to the south. That shared the gold a bit.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks for the help everyone, but after 16+ attempts at this map, I can't get close to what is considered easy for everyone else, and still can't put my finger on why.

I can't seem to see what is obvious to everyone else, and my morale has hit the floor, so I'm going to have admit defeat - again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[soundjata]

It's cool @Gunboat Diplomat we are glad you gave us the opportunity for this specific gaming experience. (I have played your map to Optics and would like to finish it too!)

Improving in this game takes practice and a strong will to change your (intellectual) habits.
I'm still struggling a lot for that, after thousands of games

 

[jorissimo]

Thanks for the help everyone, but after 16+ attempts at this map, I can't get close to what is considered easy for everyone else, and still can't put my finger on why.

I can't seem to see what is obvious to everyone else, and my morale has hit the floor, so I'm going to have admit defeat - again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Speaking for myself, but I wouldn't call it easy. I still have to think through every step, take breaks, reflect. Btw I think you beat me to Astro on your last try.

 

[jorissimo]

Furthermore, if you were able to half-arse your way to 800 AD Astro, that's still a pretty damn good result for most of us mortals. And you had those great immortal shadow games with Sury and Cyrus. I learned a lot from those. You're doing well, I think you're just being too hard on yourself and maybe overthinking a little.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Furthermore, if you were able to half-arse your way to 800 AD Astro, that's still a pretty damn good result for most of us mortals. And you had those great immortal shadow games with Sury and Cyrus. I learned a lot from those. You're doing well, I think you're just being too hard on yourself and maybe overthinking a little.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I didn't exactly half-arse my way there. It took everything I had. Lol. In over 16 games, I achieved it once, and then I couldn't replicate it. That makes it feel more like a fluke than an earned achievement (or a mastered skill - which is what I'm really aiming for here).

You're probably right that I'm being too hard on myself. Civ fatigue gets to me, and I start to wonder if I've reached the limit of my potential in this game. That's an obvious sign that I have to put it aside for a while. I invariably get over it, but it's damned frustrating in the meantime.

Improving in this game takes practice and a strong will to change your (intellectual) habits.
I'm still struggling a lot for that, after thousands of games

I have the will (and many thousands of hours of "practice"), what I seem to lack is the insight and ability.

Just call me Sisyphus.

 

[jorissimo]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I didn't exactly half-arse my way there.

It was an attempt at irony

In over 16 games, I achieved it once, and then I couldn't replicate it. That makes it feel more like a fluke than an earned achievement (or a mastered skill - which is what I'm really aiming for here).

I never play the same map twice, unless I forget that I played it before. Let alone 16 times. That doesn't sound like fun to me, and is probably part of the reason you're struggling.

Civ fatigue gets to me, and I start to wonder if I've reached the limit of my potential in this game. That's an obvious sign that I have to put it aside for a while. I invariably get over it, but it's damned frustrating in the meantime.

I also have my ups and downs. If I'm having a down, I do something easy, like a classical era advanced start buying only workers and settlers if you wanna have a laugh.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I never play the same map twice, unless I forget that I played it before. Let alone 16 times. That doesn't sound like fun to me, and is probably part of the reason you're struggling.

Yeah, I get pig-headed sometimes. With all the variables in this game, it's so hard to judge the merits of any particular strategy when you're just failing map after map (after map). It makes sense to me to try to limit those variables by trying to find a strategy that works in the specific instance, then adapting it for other maps (or keeping it in the toolkit for similar maps). But you're completely right; I'm sure it is contributing to my frustration.

 

[Neinet]

Thanks for the map!

Spoiler Spoiler: 1834 Conquest :

It was a quite interesting one, because of the isolation.


I went up to 5 cities before 1 AD, capital 1NE, 2nd city three west of the capital to get the gold and pig, 3rd city far southwest, picking up gold pig and seafood. These three cities focused on cottages

Then, I built a seafood city in northeast which lucked into the iron and built Moai in it, and a 5th city for the pig and wheat in the southwest, which ended up being heroic epic city.

I didn't use slavery all that much, prioritizing growth and cottages, and ran two scientists in my 2nd city for my two great scientists, one for academy, other for bulbing astronomy.

My first great scientist popped at 475 BC, and it put academy in the capitol. My second great scientist was 350 AD, which was saved for astronomy bulb.

Tech wise, I went for all the basics (worker techs sailing and writing), then monarchy, then went for metal casting. Then, I started settling the rest of the land, going up to 9 cities at around the time I discovered Optics at 560 AD. From there,I got caravels and started tech trading like mad, getting Math, Alphabet, Currency, Calendar, Code of Laws, Feudalism and philosophy. I bulbed astronomy at 940 AD, and it saved my economy a bit due to trade route income.

1100 AD, I discovered Education and went for Literature->music, planning to go for military tradition. In 1280, I got Military Tradition with Liberalism, but I had yet to discover gunpowder. I took a quick detour for Economics, which gave me a Great Merchant golden age to swap civics to vassalage / free market / free religion, and then went for gunpowder, which I got in 1340. I also started the Taj Mahal at this point, which was the only wonder I built this game. I was ready for my invasion of Huayna Capac, who was only on 8 cities. I declared war in 1480 with a few ships of cuirassiers, and I discovered Rifling in 1490, so I started upgrading to cavalry.

In 1530, after I captured two cities and wiped out a his stack, he quickly vassaled. Then in 1550 I discovered steel, and went on to Ramesses, who vassaled in 1575.

Then I needed a bit of time to stabilize, going for corporation, trading for physics. I was lucky that Cyrus went for everything else before going RIfling, so I invaded in 1645 with a bunch of cannons and cavalry vs knights. Cyrus had 13 cities, so this was a bloodier war than the past two, but eventually by 1705 he vassaled, after i took over the entire western half of the continent.

At this point, Sitting Bull somehow still did not have rifling. He did have assembly line though, which was a bit funny. However, I had just discovered artillery. I captured two cities and Sitting Bull capitulated.

Zara Yaqob and Kublai Khan had both advanced a bit, with Combustion, Flight, and Rocketry, but surprisingly not Assembly Line or Artillery.

I invaded both of them with an army mostly consisting of artillery and a few cavalry. It was a bit annoying getting my ships over there due to lack of oil on mainland (Although I captured some from Cyrus)

Not the most efficient game by any means, I bet that it'd be possible to win much earlier with better play, but Conquest victory at 1834 AD. I did get a bit lucky with AIs deciding to avoid rifling - I know sometimes they end up pretty much beelining it.

Attached save is using the Taurus mod.

 

[Izuul]

I played around on an Iso map, and found Willy first who was the worst enemy of Boudi (and at war).
Willy had only 2 cities left and i traded ~5 techs with him (perfect scenario..everything like maths, calendar, alpha).
Then i met Boudi and surprise, no penalty.

I play with Buffy, maybe it got fixed there?

Apparently I was not wrong. Maybe that is indeed a Buffy change.

Spoiler :

 

[Fippy]

I also had "no tech brokering" on, forgot to mention that.
You are most certainly right..i remember seeing it years ago
So either Buffy, tech brokering or a big mystery.

 

[Izuul]

Doesn't Buffy also give overflow gold on lost production?

 

[Neinet]

Buffy has the unofficial patch, (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unofficial-patch-for-3-19.324024/) which does include the overflow gold fix (in 1.0 notes)