High Production Low Commerce Start

[jorissimo]

I see: short term, you'll likely have an easier time cottage sharing, and long term you'll likely have a stronger capital. If you don't have these advantages, I guess you'll need to expand creatively in order to retain the time advantage (3 turns maybe) of SIP.

As pen dragon said it's not clear cut though. The problem is that on iso with creative you want to get a few strong cities that will likely be spaced further apart, so tile-sharing is harder.

 

[pmarc]

@Chalybion

Spoiler :

That does seem like a better option for the GLH, that 2nd city has higher commerce potential and it's less awkward to peel the wheat from the capital than the pigs.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Well, I finally managed to get an 800AD Astronomy. But it was with the absolute craziest city placement, so I'll probably try again. I think using my first GS to build an academy early made a difference, but I understand that it was also gambling that I'd get GLib.

GLib + NE + Parth = lots of GS. So now I need to figure out whether bulbing is better than a Golden Age. I'm guessing that its too late for settling them to pay off.

Spoiler T150 PH Capital :

In other news, if it is possible, is it desirable to settle on another continent? It feels to me like peacefully obtaining a forward base would allow me to mass troops without having to declare war...

Spoiler T193 - Forward Settle :

 

[a pen-dragon]

About your city placement, IMO the south-eastern fish/iron is a much lower priority than the south-western fish/wheat, especially if you are only going to work mines.

Also there should be a city working the starting wheat and river tiles rather sooner than later, as cottages take time to grow. That one is better than the wheat/copper one.

In your screenshot I can see you are working coast, which you should not be doing, as you should have enough workers to cottage, and cottages grow quickly to become way better than coast. You are not at a point where you should be building useless roads all over your continent.

forward base would allow me to mass troops without having to declare war...

As long as there are two AIs on the same landmass, you do not need to have cities of your own, just land the troops in the other AIs land.

 

[sampsa]

I think using my first GS to build an academy early made a difference, but I understand that it was also gambling that I'd get GLib.

Hmm. In general, an academy should slow down your astro date, since it means getting an extra GS.

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler T102 :

After finishing Writing, I left the slider on 0% until the capital finished its Library. Then I went Sailing (for the island city), followed by Masonry (Marble Quarry provides commerce and I need it anyway for TGL), and then Aesthetics - Myst - Poly - Lit. I realize I'm running a little late with TGL, but I think it's still possible to get. I chopped 3 workboats in Angkor Thom, built/whipped 3 more workers in Hari and AT to get to 6 (for 4 land cities), and built a settler in Hari for NJ and then whipped one at size 6 for Rjavihara. NJ whipped a galley at size 4 to transport the settler. All of that whithout a single barb galley appearing (and the whole coastline is now spawnbusted). My bpt is decent for my standards, I've done worse, and I'm comfortably #1 in GNP. I plan to build TGL and NE in AT because it has better production than the capital and would be a good long-term GP city with its double food. I do not plan to expand beyond these 6 cities before Optics.

 

[Izuul]

TGL often goes very late, even on Deity. This is especially true if the human player isn't the one teching Aesthetics and trading it around. Not many AI like to tech Aesthetics early so in ISO games it can take them a very long time to bother with it. I think Hammurabi likes to go early Aesthetics and there might be one other, but most AI prioritize other things and largely ignore that tech path.

 

[aitkensam]

Domination

Spoiler :

1615AD. Cavalry for everyone. First war didn't start until 1360AD, pretty late. Troublesome to move all the ships.

Spoiler :

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Hmm. In general, an academy should slow down your astro date, since it means getting an extra GS.

In the games I've played so far, teching to optics has been the bottleneck. If I've got the great library, then by the time I get optics, I've almost always got 3 or 4 great scientists sitting around. Using one of them to speed up getting to optics seems valid.

I'm sure that all of this points to errors and inefficiencies in the rest of my game, but then we always knew I had those. I'm still trying to understand how to identify and fix them. Never say die.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

@aitkensam any chance of getting the final save? I'd love to see what's going on at the end there.

 

[sampsa]

If I've got the great library, then by the time I get optics, I've almost always got 3 or 4 great scientists sitting around. Using one of them to speed up getting to optics seems valid.

Well the Great Library is a bit of an anti-astronomy play. It will delay the date, the point of it is to be in better shape later.

 

[jorissimo]

General iso question: is it recommended to first meet all AIs before starting to trade? To get a feel for diplo and tech landscapes? Or just start trading right away?

 

[pmarc]

In the games I've played so far, teching to optics has been the bottleneck. If I've got the great library, then by the time I get optics, I've almost always got 3 or 4 great scientists sitting around. Using one of them to speed up getting to optics seems valid.

I'm sure that all of this points to errors and inefficiencies in the rest of my game, but then we always knew I had those. I'm still trying to understand how to identify and fix them. Never say die.

In my game I got Optics in 25 AD (turn 116), even with the mistake of not developing the river SE of capital until almost Optics. This is a map with a lot of commerce, a few river cities + 2 gold tiles, so Optics before 1 AD should be possible. Getting a 3rd GS can be fast with Great Library, but if you can get 4 GS pre-Optics without being Philosophical in isolation, it probably means Optics is late, i.e. you are not focusing on commerce enough.

 

[pmarc]

General iso question: is it recommended to first meet all AIs before starting to trade? To get a feel for diplo and tech landscapes? Or just start trading right away?

That's a good question. I thought that an AI you haven't met yet will not count trades you make with other AIs towards the tech trading limit, and also you will not get "you traded with our worst enemies". So generally I would view it as an advantage to trade right away before you meet others. But now I'm not sure...

 

[soundjata]

Yes I agree with ^ trade anything asap.
Worst case scenario you are going to get a double "+4 you have traded with our worst enemy" because trading with a couple of foes. Then what? Are they going to plot on you from the other side of the globe? (while you are beelining chemistry)
And the +4 modifier will decay as well.

 

[Izuul]

I'm pretty sure you do the get the worst enemy diplo penalty even if you haven't met them yet. That said, trading as soon as possible is still the way to go IMO, especially if you have your 2x Astro bulb ready to go and are waiting to trade for Calendar.

 

[pmarc]

@Gunboat Diplomat Another thing about the logistics of carrying troops across the ocean... I don't think anyone mentioned it here yet, but you can transfer units between two galleons that are on the same tile, so you can set up a galleon chain to ferry units across instead of ships going all the way back and forth.

 

[Chalybion]

When meeting AIs for the first time, any trade that is favorable for the AI will give +4 gift bonus - so it is easy to cancel out the -4 penalty for trading with worst enemy.
I usually wait until I have met 2-3 AI. That way I know that I can get full value of my monopoly tech (often Compass) without an AI trading it away before I can. This way, there are also still a few AI that I am not adding to the WFYABTA counter.
Of course, if Calendar is the last tech needed to bulb Astro, then Astro outweighs any tech-trading downside.

 

[aitkensam]

@aitkensam any chance of getting the final save? I'd love to see what's going on at the end there.

Sure. Ignore what the cities are doing as I automated everything a few turns before the end. Basically main island was building cavs, galleons or frigates non-stop since the start of the first war. (Edit: Maybe they paused to build levees). A little bit of great person micro here and there. Most of the buildings on main island should be stuff I built I think. All captured cities were automated from the start (too lazy to micro more...).

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler 740 AD (Optics) :

I won't quite be able to half-arse 800 AD Astro, but I just discovered Optics and we instantly meet Cyrus, who is on 10 cities and the founder of Buddhism. He doesn't know Alphabet though . I have 3 GS in waiting from running scientists in Hari and TGL and NE down in AT. I completed that wonder in 1 AD. I also whipped forges in cities with +3 unhappiness, a break-even no-brainer. I upgraded 1 Trireme to a Caravel and will upgrade the second one on the next turn. I'm looking forward to meeting the rest of the AI. I have a settler in place to plop down the iron fish city, which I might as well do this turn. Hari and NJ are building 2 more settlers for the western spots. Btw, forgot to up the slider: I'm making a meager 150 bpt at 100%.