Beelining to Gunpowder

[Andrei_V]

Yeap, I was talking about the promotions given by Toku's Aggressive and Protective traits. I'm not convinced that it's worth it - instead of going for Samurais.

That was also my reason why I picked Toku in my first 700 AD attempt. 3 free promos seems cool. Missing Samurais... Well, I would not even think of it unless absolutely no Iron around. Capturing a city with CD1 Longbows even on a hill with Samurais? If you have a few CR2 units, you don't even need to suicide cats.

As for the Southern/Northen route challenge, what if anybody interested just starts a game, picks any route he likes, and posts the initial and final saves? Then anybody else could replay that same game with a different route.

 

[carl corey]

That's what I wanted to say when talking about a "challenge". I just wanted a little more, like playing the same map, from the same starting point, with all three leaders: Mehmed, Nappy and Toku. Will start a thread about it as soon as I get to modifying the WorldBuilder save.

 

[cabert]

That's what I wanted to say when talking about a "challenge". I just wanted a little more, like playing the same map, from the same starting point, with all three leaders: Mehmed, Nappy and Toku. Will start a thread about it as soon as I get to modifying the WorldBuilder save.

there is no point playing all 3 leaders.
Just playing one out of Napoleon, Louis or Mehmed is enough.
They have different traits, and different possible beelining strats, but in the end the difference will be small (on warlords 2.08, with creative giving half priced libraries, louis could be the best one)

 

[idiot_savant]

Challenge sounds interesting as start location does have a lot to do with how you may or may not proceed... I've done this a few times w/ Mehmed now (playing through about 1700 each time) and Nappy once. I did Nappy on Warlords as well. Couple quick observations. Prince, Continents, Epic speed.

* I tried using GSs to do a south route. Got GP around 900 w/ Liberalism (not so good), but did have Construction, MC, Machinery, and CS before GP. Very tough avoiding Fishing to keep the south route open especially given 2 of 3 leaders are Organized and always seem to get coastlines with fish. Janissaries very effective, period lasted about ~ 300 years. Wiped two civs in that time frame. W. proper seige, Jans lasted longer. AI had issues getting Grens up and running fast even after it had Chem. Organized is a nice benefit to keep your economy running.

* Tried pure north route, GP around 720. Did north route exclusively. Was very easy to conquer English (all LBs) and got through a lot of Huanya. AI seemed late with Chem or Rifling this time despite somewhat fast techers (Hannibal, etc.). After awhile the sheer amount of LBs in cities was making it difficult to plow through. LBs in a relatively small number are not so bad, but once the AI ramps up and LBs get 2 promotions it does get tougher.

* Nappy, best run yet. Again, got through North route. Did have enough wonders (Stone close by) to generate GEs, so going to give that a try. Again, 1200s, Grens start to show up in small numbers. A lot of good techers here and a vassal state kept me from getting through 2 civs.

One thing I wanted to reiterate from others: you need to build seige ahead of time as you waiting to tech to Muskets. Though I did find a couple cities w/ Archers/etc., the AI was able to get LBs in place quickly. My Nappy location wasn't good, so cities couldn't handle extensive drafting.

(on warlords 2.08, with creative giving half priced libraries, louis could be the best one)

I too agree that Louis may be best for this. Industrious will also get you the wonders to generate more GEs. Onto Nappy on vanilla, Louis, and some pure south route testing.

In sum from testing, the north route seems best because you get better trading techs and it provides infrastructure bonuses and benefits that you may not get by focusing hard on the south route. I do think w/ Warlords you can generate enough GEs (w/ appropriate from others) to get it done. Will post if find anything interesting.

 

[carl corey]

Well I went on and started a challenge about the Gunpowder beeline. If anyone is interested, here it is: Warlords Challenge: What can you do with a kind word and a gun?

It's Monarch/Continents/Normal as anything less would probably make things too easy. I've managed to do the slingshot in an Ottomans game with the same settings and I've only started playing Monarch recently so I'm sure others will be able to do it too.

 

[obsolete]

It is a mostly defence unit, but it does ignore walls.

Im curious who here builds walls? If you are wasting your time on that, why not build something worth while, like a library that not only gives you extra science but culture as well. And since you're getting culture, what point is there in walls when you're getting culture defence.....

 

[carl corey]

Computers build walls. That's about it.

 

[Welnic]

Walls and castles boost your power rating without costing anything after you make them. But I never build them either. I have built some duns.

 

[Mutineer]

What I want to add to this tread that generally beelining to a military units with out reason tend to be pointless.

Getting muskets is not a goal in itself in useal game, thought they are often a bulk of my army, providing stack defence and city garnison.

But when reason exist, beeligning to gunpowder could be a good decision.

I remamber an emperor game I had a long time ago, as Peter.

I was surrounded by supperpowers with no access to metal and stick to 4 or 5 cities.
On positive side my neybors had my religion and my second city cite were perfect for gp farm.

So, when researching for construction and building cats I used
Theology-paper (GS)-Education(GS+GS)-Gunpowder router, getting gunpowder about 200AD or so.

I do not think I even had Col yet when I went to conqusts with a mixture or Muskets/brebuilded cats. I did had a good trade bites .

But again, this game was an exeption, when game situation and leader trait made this path a good one.

Gunpowder is resonable distance away and strategy of just beelining to it would not work in general case. There main purpouse it to be a support/defence unit.

 

[nealhunt]

Im curious who here builds walls? If you are wasting your time on that, why not build something worth while, like a library that not only gives you extra science but culture as well. And since you're getting culture, what point is there in walls when you're getting culture defence.....

If you are a Protective civ that happens to have stone, walls take almost no time at all. One protective Longbowman in a walled city or castle can protect your borders for very little maintenance. The last game I played as China I had stone near my capital. Once I had Forges going, walls only took a single turn to build in most cities and castles (which also provide culture) only took 2-4.

In a situation like that I will build them.

 

[gdgrimm]

Has anybody considered Ghandi a good candidate for this beeline?

Admittedly, not particularly good for leveraging this beeline for a Domination Victory. And his Musketmen won't be nearly as effective as those of the other 4 leaders mentioned. But he may be well suited for leveraging it to acquire the necessary land/resources for a Space Race victory.

Mysticism start aids in founding a religion and using the religion techs for happiness control.
Philosophical for getting the GP's faster.
2 Great Prophets (one for Theology, one for a Shrine)
2 or 3 Great Scientists (for Paper and Education)
Maybe even an Oracle -> Metal Working pop to help with production once Musketmen are available.

I might try him for that. I'm not sure how important CoL is for any of this. If Caste System is pretty necessary, then Ghandi loses attractiveness pretty fast.

 

[idiot_savant]

Caste System is very beneficial if you're going to lightbulb early. Not sure if absolutely necessary, but CS + Pacifism gets you a lot of beakers.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Would the Pyramids (for Representation) and a Specialist Economy speed this up, I wonder? If you run a couple Scientists, that's 6 BPT straight up. Can this be leveraged? Another thought would be Elizabeth, where you can cottage spam the land around you and get double GPP for the specialists you run...

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Ok so I tried it, got gunpowder around 1000 ad using great prophet to theology, great scientist to 50% education on Monarch. I was Napoleon. I still ran into problems, mainly...

1. I was behind in tech until I traded Education. And even then when I was trading it I felt like I was REALLY helping the ai. They were trading me all this easier stuff that I had skipped and still maintained a slight tech advantage while I gave them education.
2. I tried to launch a war but had poor results, mainly because after a couple cities the ai had longbowmen while I had axemen.
3. I got attacked literally the turn after I got gunpowder. Unfortunately, I still had mostly axemen with around 6 macemen because of my tech disadvantage and money. I also learned that axemen dont upgrade straight into mustketmen, and even if I take them to macemen its a costly 125.
4. Something that I will admit plays into all of this was that I had no iron. That meant no swordsmen which of course would have given me a much better angle of attacking...and no crossbowmen for when the ai blew by me to civil service.

Im sure I could have done things better, but the main problem was I had axemen the majority of this time while the ai did not. A philo leader would have obviously sped the process up, as would have the great library but I skipped literature for the gunpowder beeline and it had been built long after I traded for it. The overall feeling I had was that it might have better and/or safer to do it the old-fashioned way.

 

[idiot_savant]

Check out carl corey's challenge (sorry don't know how to link a thread ). On Monarch, you can definitely get into the early 600s with proper GPP and tech management (on another map, someone even got in at 560) without being Philosophical . The challenge is not getting certain techs, so your GSs can lightbulb the proper techs and driving GPPs. Some of those "skipped" techs are very valuable indeed depending on your leader.

Vanilla would be even easier as you can still lightbulb Civil Service.

Philosophical could be sick, but the regular Musket is not spectacular. If I was doing Philosophical, I would go for a very early lightbulb of Chemistry. Grenadiers in the early 700s, possibly even 600s, should be doable w. a Philo leader... hmmm... Too bad no one has a special Grenadier...

 

[gdgrimm]

Ok so I tried it, got gunpowder around 1000 ad using great prophet to theology, great scientist to 50% education on Monarch. I was Napoleon. I still ran into problems, mainly...

1. I was behind in tech until I traded Education. And even then when I was trading it I felt like I was REALLY helping the ai. They were trading me all this easier stuff that I had skipped and still maintained a slight tech advantage while I gave them education.
2. I tried to launch a war but had poor results, mainly because after a couple cities the ai had longbowmen while I had axemen.
3. I got attacked literally the turn after I got gunpowder. Unfortunately, I still had mostly axemen with around 6 macemen because of my tech disadvantage and money. I also learned that axemen dont upgrade straight into mustketmen, and even if I take them to macemen its a costly 125.
4. Something that I will admit plays into all of this was that I had no iron. That meant no swordsmen which of course would have given me a much better angle of attacking...and no crossbowmen for when the ai blew by me to civil service.

Im sure I could have done things better, but the main problem was I had axemen the majority of this time while the ai did not. A philo leader would have obviously sped the process up, as would have the great library but I skipped literature for the gunpowder beeline and it had been built long after I traded for it. The overall feeling I had was that it might have better and/or safer to do it the old-fashioned way.

I'm a little confused here. I thought the whole point of beelining to Gunpowder was that you wouldn't fight an offensive war until after you had it.
So I don't understand why you did #2 at all.

Similarly, on #4, swordsmen are not necessary, since you won't be using them to take any cities. Not having Iron would hurt with not having defensive Crossbowmen, but shouldn't you be getting Musketmen about the same time that the AI can make Macemen (are even earlier)? In which case, you don't need the Crossbowmen anymore.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

I'm a little confused here. I thought the whole point of beelining to Gunpowder was that you wouldn't fight an offensive war until after you had it.
So I don't understand why you did #2 at all.

To me beelining to gunpowder just means getting it asap. I still wanted to fight an early war to give my civ some breathing room and knock out one ai civ early on. I dont like waiting on wars till medieval times, at least most of the time. Plus when I do a domination or conquest I try to win it as early as possible.

 

[Wodan]

To me beelining to gunpowder just means getting it asap. I still wanted to fight an early war to give my civ some breathing room and knock out one ai civ early on. I dont like waiting on wars till medieval times, at least most of the time. Plus when I do a domination or conquest I try to win it as early as possible.

Fighting a war costs units and $ on maintenance and unhappiness. This will result in a delay of the objective of getting gunpowder. Right?

To me, I'd rather have a bigger, better conquest in 800-1000AD than two little ones in 500BC and again in 1400AD. Or whatever years they come in. I think it's inarguable that the later you achieve a potentially dominant unit, the better the AI will be able to defend. e.g., they'll have longbows instead of archers, maces instead of axes.

By having a bigger war later, courthouses, markets, and grocers are available. You'll be able to afford to keep more of the conquered cities.

Now, if seriously cramped early on, then all bets are off. It'd be better to totally scrap any thought of beelining to gunpowder and simply gear up for an Axe war.

My two cents. YMMV

Wodan

 

[idiot_savant]

Fighting a war costs units and $ on maintenance and unhappiness. This will result in a delay of the objective of getting gunpowder. Right?

Have to agree with Wodan here... You have to be very strict about what you build in your cities and when. Not building things you can't put to immediate use for the purpose of beelining is essential.

Also, building research (yes, I know, many don't) is very, very helpful as there are some techs which are hard to lightbulb working against beakers alone (given you'll probably have 4-6 cities and likely no CS). Via Education, you will have to research Gunpowder itself (and others depending on your type of GPs). Via Guilds, you will most likely have to research Feudalism and Guilds. Production as you approach Guns should go to Seige weapons as Muskets.

On higher difficulties, if you're going to war early, you might as well not bother with the beeline to Gunpowder IMO. AIs are going to be too advanced for Muskets, and you're going to need to go into an economic phase after the war.