aelf
Ashen One
By the way, I just counted. The northern route takes 45 more turns to research at 9 bpt. I think GS's can more than cover that gap. Easily.
Beelining to Gunpowder
- Thread starter Wodan
- Start date
By the way, I just counted. The northern route takes 45 more turns to research at 9 bpt. I think GS's can more than cover that gap. Easily.
It'll take even longer, and you won't have benefits from bureaucracy. Your strat is heavily dependent on GPs from Wonders, while Education path is dependent on GS from Libraries only. Like Mutineer has pointed out, you need 3 GS to get past Paper->Education, while actually researching something else, like MC->Machinery.
Means no Cover until 3rd promotion, which means you lose the benefit from both. While CRII is always on place.
I wonder what would prevent them from using cats against Muskets. Cover (or an Elephant) against xbows, Shock against melee. Spear/Elephant against mounted.
BTW, if the AI have xbows already, how about attacking their xbow protected cities with Formation Muskets?
... is actually 100 hammers with or 150 hammers without in the first place.
Things change dramatically when you start conquering more cities, and lower the slider down to, say, 50%.is 12.5% of commerce in the capitol * the gold slider, under a CE the gold slider is going to be, what, 20%? Say the capitol is making 50 commerce. That means we're talking a difference of 3 gold.You guys are nitpicking.
Now, 50*0.5 * 1.5 (bureaucracy) * 1.25 (Market) = 46.8,
while
50*0.5 * 1.25 (Grocer only) = 31.25.
See that 15+ gold difference? It means you can capture 2 or 3 more cities without lowering the slider further.
Having slider at 80% with bureaucracy also means you invest an additional 20 commerce (50*0.8*0.5) into research, which is also affected by the Library, totaling 25 more beakers. You tech faster, and a lot.
Just rush it while researching Gunpowder, that's it. In your example with 50 commerce at 80% plus bureaucracy it'll give additional 40*1.5*0.25 = 15 beakers after recovering from the whip. It will even speed up Gunpowder by a turn or two.
Also, the life is not going to stop after Gunpowder, and it's going to take a while to build an army anyway. The University will be working hard all this time.
See above.
That's simple.
A GS gives 1500 + 3 * pop beakers. Anybody else gives 1000 + 2 * pop.
To say, if you want to lightbulb Guilds with a Merchant, you need 1000*m beakers (m is dependent on map size/difficulty, let's say it's 1.5, approx. Monarch on Standard size), so you'll get approximately 70% of it.
Before that you need 700*m for Feudalism, 700*m for Machinery, which are ok for 1 GP each.
You can also lightbulb Gunpowder itself, getting 1000+ out of 1200*m, that's about 60%.
So, if you lightbulb, the Guilds path is ok, the real problem is how to get all those GPs. The only source is either Forges or Wonders. Grocer can assign 2 Merchants, but it comes a little bit too late.
I think it's a lot easier to set up 2 or 3 small (size 3 or 4 depending on food) cities early with a Library and two Scientists. No need for wonders at all, although I'd add Alphabet to the required techs, and try to trade for things like Monarchy or Calendar for more happiness.
Paeanblack
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Messages
- 518
How about this one:
(Stonehenge)
Polytheism
Priesthood
(Start Oracle)
Writing
Masonry
Monotheism
Mysticism
(Prophet=Theology)
Paper
(Oracle=Education)
Gunpowder
Except for Paper, these are cheap techs, and Paper is not that expensive. You could probably get them all in before the Oracle is built elsewhere. If you went with the Egyptians, you wouldn't even need Stonehenge to get the Prophet in time.
(Stonehenge)
Polytheism
Priesthood
(Start Oracle)
Writing
Masonry
Monotheism
Mysticism
(Prophet=Theology)
Paper
(Oracle=Education)
Gunpowder
Except for Paper, these are cheap techs, and Paper is not that expensive. You could probably get them all in before the Oracle is built elsewhere. If you went with the Egyptians, you wouldn't even need Stonehenge to get the Prophet in time.
For what it's worth, GSs can lightbulb a lot of the southern path, too, if you avoid Fishing (and therefore Sailing, Compass, Calendar, etc.) If you have Math, Alphabet, Wheel, IW, Ag and Masonry (any of which can usually be backfilled by trading Alphabet), your GSs will pop Metal Casting, Machinery, and (so long as you've avoided Construction, which unlocks Engineering) Gunpowder. Since GSs are relatively easy to get, it might be worth trying.
peace,
lilnev
peace,
lilnev
It may work on Prince or lower. Paper (600) equals to Col (350) + Math (250), so it's about the same as CS Slingshot as far as the Oracle is concerned, except you invest extra hammers into Stonehenge, and lack bureaucracy for researching Gunpowder, as well as Math for chopping.
shadow2k
Emperor
Attacking cities: Cover works just as well as CR. AIs aren't going to have Maces yet.
Also, Combat I, II, etc, add 0.9 strength. City Raider I would add 1.2 vs a Longbow (.2*6). So it's not that far off.
Sometimes I think people have City Raider on the brain. There are other promotions, you know.
The problem with the "other" promotions for attacking cities is that the defender will often switch to something else that you are no longer promoted for. Someone mentioned a HA, and you said to go formation. But then it will just switch to something else, like the LB.
City Raider is all purpose, that's the beauty of it. The defenders won't switch up on you, screwing up your promotions.
aelf
Ashen One
I fully agree.
lilnev said:
No Construction for siege weapons?
Anyway, part of the reason for my support for the northern route is how it leaves you in a good position to continue from that point, with CoL, CS, Education and such researched.
Wodan
Deity
Part of my support for the southern route is that you don't need those other techs until after you have gunpowder and are churning out muskets/janissaries. You can get Construction as your first tech after gunpowder, and other things such as CoL you don't even need until you have actually conquered some cities.No Construction for siege weapons?
Wodan
I just made a couple of attempts as Mehmed on Monarch (Standard Continents again).
In both cases I was able to get Gunpowder through CS and Education around 700 AD. In the first case I built the Oracle for CoL, in the second case I did not build any wonders at all.
The AIs all had Longbows by 500 AD or something, even if i did not tech trade with them. Shortly after they all had Knights and Maces, so my first Janissaries had to fight all three types of units.
It was not bad until I run into the Incan capital founded on a hill and protected by several CD1 Longbows and Macemen. This is where my stack of 10 or something Janissaries died even after I bombarded the cultural defenses down to 0% with a couple of Trebuchets. Things like Cover promotion did not work - to my Jans with Cover, Maces would respond.
I was able to get Nationalism shortly after Gunpowder (it's like 2-4 turns on Philosophy + 10-12 on Nationalism), and drafted a lot.
Some observations. On Monarch if you want to make a good use of Gunpowder, you need not only have it researched by 500-700AD, but to have a decent army already. Otherwise you'll face all kinds of medieval units, and the Gunpowder itself is not that far away. You may expect them to get it by 1100-1200 AD.
Missing Construction on the way is a very bad idea because you could have been building cats all along before Gunpowder.
Chemistry is indeed not that far away, and not because you do not beeline, but because you tech fast. It's like 2 turns on MC, 5 turns on Machinery, 7 on Engineering, 11 on Chemistry, even if you don't tech trade.
One of OP's ideas was to abstain from tech trades, and I am now quite convinced it's extremely bad idea. They'd research anything on their own (trading between themselves), but you'd fall apart.
In both cases I was able to get Gunpowder through CS and Education around 700 AD. In the first case I built the Oracle for CoL, in the second case I did not build any wonders at all.
The AIs all had Longbows by 500 AD or something, even if i did not tech trade with them. Shortly after they all had Knights and Maces, so my first Janissaries had to fight all three types of units.
It was not bad until I run into the Incan capital founded on a hill and protected by several CD1 Longbows and Macemen. This is where my stack of 10 or something Janissaries died even after I bombarded the cultural defenses down to 0% with a couple of Trebuchets. Things like Cover promotion did not work - to my Jans with Cover, Maces would respond.
I was able to get Nationalism shortly after Gunpowder (it's like 2-4 turns on Philosophy + 10-12 on Nationalism), and drafted a lot.
Some observations. On Monarch if you want to make a good use of Gunpowder, you need not only have it researched by 500-700AD, but to have a decent army already. Otherwise you'll face all kinds of medieval units, and the Gunpowder itself is not that far away. You may expect them to get it by 1100-1200 AD.
Missing Construction on the way is a very bad idea because you could have been building cats all along before Gunpowder.
Chemistry is indeed not that far away, and not because you do not beeline, but because you tech fast. It's like 2 turns on MC, 5 turns on Machinery, 7 on Engineering, 11 on Chemistry, even if you don't tech trade.
One of OP's ideas was to abstain from tech trades, and I am now quite convinced it's extremely bad idea. They'd research anything on their own (trading between themselves), but you'd fall apart.
Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
I tried it with Washington, but found that Alexander declared war on me while I was researching Gunpowder, and pillaged my mines so that I was forced to rely on the whip to get the muskets to provide an active defence, but still could not hold off Alexander. This was on Warlord!
So does this even work?
So does this even work?
Er? You need those other techs. By the time you get gunpowder they'll have Longbows (like Andrei_V) said.
In all honesty beeling to a military tech isn't what it's all cracked up to be, unless it's an Ancient Age UU. So you beeline to Gunpowder? Then what? It'll take a while to make enough Guns to threaten opponents, meanwhile you have bad tradebait. They will have Longbows, they will outproduce you since they have better infrastructure. Rushing with a few high-tech units isn't worth it, they WILL die and then you have a big setback. Not to mention once the AI goes into war they will put a TON more shields into troops.
If you take the northern path, you will have good tradebait (philosophy is useless for military and I can routinely trade it for Feudalism/Metal Casting/part of Machinery, same goes for paper and to a lesser extent Education), while building up infrastructure and siege. Then when you get Liberalism/Nationalism, start drafting and producing muskets in addition to the Maces/Catas/Trebs you have already started producing. Then, and only then, when you know you have enough to take a significant chunk out of the enemey, do you attack.
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
This all depends on when the AI acquires Alphabet... and that's when you can trade the "bottom techs" for the "top techs". I'm a supporter of the "top route" myself, but the "bottom route" may actually be better or worse depending on when the AI acquires Alphabet.
Bottom route also has tradebait like Compass and Optics, anyway.
Bottom route also has tradebait like Compass and Optics, anyway.
Of course I can. Who could forbid me to do it? Never heard of HoF? What are they comparing?wodan said:
Try it your way with any game you want, and give us a better date.
Or ask Carl Corey to give you the initial save and beat his date with the south route.
Long refutable arguments are worth nothing.
Showing how it works is worth a lot...
carl corey
Deity
Well, I don't have the initial save anymore, and I started another game too in the meantime, so no autosave. But I still say we can create a challenge and give people a chance to try all those different routes on the same map. I might even start this myself sometime this weekend.
carl corey
Deity
Hmm, I was thinking of starting a game with the Ottomans, then somehow modifying it in the WorldBuilder to switch to the French and Japanese as these three have the most powerful Musketmen. But I have no idea how to do it or even if it's possible at all. Does anyone know more about this?
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
I don't think it is possible to do it just in world builder, but I could be wrong. What I did was roll a start, drop into world builder, save the map, then edit the leaders (and starting units as neccessary) by hand, then reverse the process.
I'd be surprised if there weren't already a MOD somewhere to automate this process.
ps Japanese?
carl corey
Deity
Yeap, I was talking about the promotions given by Toku's Aggressive and Protective traits. I'm not convinced that it's worth it - instead of going for Samurais. But since people have expressed interest in them...
I'll look into manually modifying the leader. Shouldn't be too hard.
I'll look into manually modifying the leader. Shouldn't be too hard.
aelf
Ashen One
It just seems that there are too many arguments for the northern route to doubt it. I appreciate the idea of trying out the southern route for variety, but I think this is one of those things in civ where one way is usually better than the other.
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