Beginners Guide to the First 100 Moves
- Thread starter jmrathbun
- Start date
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Score is not necessarily the best indicator of progress. Population, beakers/turn, land area and production are more informative.
What are your "heuristics" when ordering your workers around? Mine are something like
1. Improve food specials
2. Improve other good specials
3. Think about what this city is going to do at its current happy cap, and make improvements necessary. Ie production city: how many and which mines? Commerce city: how many cottages?
If the city has less than two food specials, consider adding one or two farms first before going to 3.
Edit: roads are not included in the above. Only build roads if you really need to (eg to connect copper/horses) or when the initial round of improvements is done. Exceptions: 1. pre-roading to a new city site (to save settler move turns), and 2. connect trade routes if it is easy (ie a one or two square road to connect to river or existing roads).
Edit2: You can often build roads "en passent": if you need to move two squares to get to a tile you want to improve, you can either walk there in turn 1 and improve from turn two, or walk to the in-between square on turn one and start a road (and immediately cancel it), and move to the target square and start improving on turn 2. This gives a free worker turn whenever you move across flatland to flatland.
What are your "heuristics" when ordering your workers around? Mine are something like
1. Improve food specials
2. Improve other good specials
3. Think about what this city is going to do at its current happy cap, and make improvements necessary. Ie production city: how many and which mines? Commerce city: how many cottages?
If the city has less than two food specials, consider adding one or two farms first before going to 3.
Edit: roads are not included in the above. Only build roads if you really need to (eg to connect copper/horses) or when the initial round of improvements is done. Exceptions: 1. pre-roading to a new city site (to save settler move turns), and 2. connect trade routes if it is easy (ie a one or two square road to connect to river or existing roads).
Edit2: You can often build roads "en passent": if you need to move two squares to get to a tile you want to improve, you can either walk there in turn 1 and improve from turn two, or walk to the in-between square on turn one and start a road (and immediately cancel it), and move to the target square and start improving on turn 2. This gives a free worker turn whenever you move across flatland to flatland.
I feel better about the attached game, which is at Monarch. I built a worker first and then started a chop-rush, which helped a lot with getting my early cities built. At present I'm trying to get great scientists going so I can goose my research, moving my capitol to save a few bucks, researching calendar because I have 5 calendar resources that will help my economy, building some aqueducts in the hope of getting more population from Hanging Gardens, avoiding Open Borders in the hope I can seal off the area to my northwest, and waiting to see what religion will give me the most help. The Barbs are really a nuisance at this level!
Ghpstage
Deity
It a bit of an improvement and you are looking to be in a strong position to win this, but theres still plenty of room for more improvement.
This map I would have played very differently, Riverside would have gone 2N to grab the triple gold. Early commerce resources (especially mining ones) are a tremendous boost to your economy.
The capital rather than working cottages would have been farmed and mined, its main job would have been to get settlers and workers out to all that empty land. It would have run specialists as needed and would likely become a wonderworks GP farm later in the game.
The land needs further exploration, I mean is there food for those furs?
You should really be getting Alpha earlier, here you could have traded for IW, Sailing and probably some of the bits and bobs saving you from researching yourself.
The buildings your picking need work too. Walls are very rarely useful, and pretty much never useful on Monarch. Aqueducts are worthless when your
cap is so high too, you only need one for Hanging Gardens which is another waste of 
here as, your at your 
cap, have plenty of health, very few cities and no stone.
Theres no reason to hold off on opening borders with the Khmer, even with OB AIs will only send settlers through borders in a galley. It would bring in valuable trade, help relations and hopefully let him spread Hindism to you. Hindu is by far the most likely religion to be best.
I don't like the Palace move either. Any savings you make off maintenance will be negligable and will probably never pay off the cost of moving the palace and the losses caused by it. The only reason you should really be considering for moving the palace here is to get a better Bureacracy site, and I don't think you have one.
This map I would have played very differently, Riverside would have gone 2N to grab the triple gold. Early commerce resources (especially mining ones) are a tremendous boost to your economy.
The capital rather than working cottages would have been farmed and mined, its main job would have been to get settlers and workers out to all that empty land. It would have run specialists as needed and would likely become a wonderworks GP farm later in the game.
The land needs further exploration, I mean is there food for those furs?
You should really be getting Alpha earlier, here you could have traded for IW, Sailing and probably some of the bits and bobs saving you from researching yourself.
The buildings your picking need work too. Walls are very rarely useful, and pretty much never useful on Monarch. Aqueducts are worthless when your
cap is so high too, you only need one for Hanging Gardens which is another waste of here as, your at your cap, have plenty of health, very few cities and no stone.Theres no reason to hold off on opening borders with the Khmer, even with OB AIs will only send settlers through borders in a galley. It would bring in valuable trade, help relations and hopefully let him spread Hindism to you. Hindu is by far the most likely religion to be best.
I don't like the Palace move either. Any savings you make off maintenance will be negligable and will probably never pay off the cost of moving the palace and the losses caused by it. The only reason you should really be considering for moving the palace here is to get a better Bureacracy site, and I don't think you have one.
<<Riverside would have gone 2N to grab the triple gold. Early commerce resources (especially mining ones) are a tremendous boost to your economy.>>
I tried this and it worked well, I think.
<<The capital rather than working cottages would have been farmed and mined>>
Although not having a lot of cottages is hurting my commerce, it did help my research some.
<<The land needs further exploration, I mean is there food for those furs?>>
On the repeat I got a better look up north. I chose West Bay to eventually get the furs but I wanted to be near the cattle.
<<You should really be getting Alpha earlier, here you could have traded for IW, Sailing and probalby some othe bits and bobs saving you from researching yourself.>>
Nobody else had finished Writing so I wasn't able to trade Alphabet. I did trade Horseback Riding to Pericles for Sailing and Iron-working. I hate trading Horseback Riding to a rival but I really needed the commerce. I got Horseback Riding free from a tribal village and felt I really wanted to build horse archers when I ran into the Barbarian city where East Bay is now. It had three archers and I wanted to stop them before there were four.
<<Walls are very rarely useful, and pretty much never useful on Monarch.>>
This I totally don't get. My first try at Monarch, I was overrun before turn 100 and only saved my city by a hair. With 1/3 less defense it wouldn't have been possible. Yes I could have built more units but then I would have been paying for them every turn. When an enemy has to bring siege engines, that really slows him down and gives me time to "surge" my forces into the fight. Please explain your reasoning.
Other notes:
I saw significant differences related to the way the AI rolled the dice on this trial. The Barbarians ate me up, for one thing. It seemed that if a Barbarian unit had a 1% chance of success, I usually lost the fight. Also there were two Barbarian cities near my borders this time.
I ran into an interesting situation in Themthar Hills. There were only enough people to work two of the mines and the city was stagnant, so I built a farm which pulled a crew off one of the mines and left me with less gold than I had before. I suppose I'll be glad later.
Since I have at least 50% more troops than Suryavarman, I suppose my intermediate-term goal will be to occupy his territory as soon as my economy perks up a bit. Do you have some suggestions to offer?
I tried this and it worked well, I think.
<<The capital rather than working cottages would have been farmed and mined>>
Although not having a lot of cottages is hurting my commerce, it did help my research some.
<<The land needs further exploration, I mean is there food for those furs?>>
On the repeat I got a better look up north. I chose West Bay to eventually get the furs but I wanted to be near the cattle.
<<You should really be getting Alpha earlier, here you could have traded for IW, Sailing and probalby some othe bits and bobs saving you from researching yourself.>>
Nobody else had finished Writing so I wasn't able to trade Alphabet. I did trade Horseback Riding to Pericles for Sailing and Iron-working. I hate trading Horseback Riding to a rival but I really needed the commerce. I got Horseback Riding free from a tribal village and felt I really wanted to build horse archers when I ran into the Barbarian city where East Bay is now. It had three archers and I wanted to stop them before there were four.
<<Walls are very rarely useful, and pretty much never useful on Monarch.>>
This I totally don't get. My first try at Monarch, I was overrun before turn 100 and only saved my city by a hair. With 1/3 less defense it wouldn't have been possible. Yes I could have built more units but then I would have been paying for them every turn. When an enemy has to bring siege engines, that really slows him down and gives me time to "surge" my forces into the fight. Please explain your reasoning.
Other notes:
I saw significant differences related to the way the AI rolled the dice on this trial. The Barbarians ate me up, for one thing. It seemed that if a Barbarian unit had a 1% chance of success, I usually lost the fight. Also there were two Barbarian cities near my borders this time.
I ran into an interesting situation in Themthar Hills. There were only enough people to work two of the mines and the city was stagnant, so I built a farm which pulled a crew off one of the mines and left me with less gold than I had before. I suppose I'll be glad later.
Since I have at least 50% more troops than Suryavarman, I suppose my intermediate-term goal will be to occupy his territory as soon as my economy perks up a bit. Do you have some suggestions to offer?
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
The thing is, being overrun is bad whether you lose your city or not. You get valuable improvements pillaged at a sensitive time in the game, and the AI will sometimes fortify units on your hills just to be difficult. You should avoid that situation by having a strong, flexible empire, with sensibly placed cities and reasonable diplomacy, and good, fast, early-game choices. Throwing away 50 early hammers is not a reasonable way to achieve any of those things.
If you have some way to be certain that the AI is planning to suicide their stack into your city, then walls are obviously a great, highly efficient option. But for those 50 hammers, you could have gotten an archer, plus put 25 more hammers into a wonder for 25 failure gold to run the archer for 25 turns. (this is per city!) That archer can move between cities, acquire promotions, fortify on hills, increase happiness under HR, etc. etc... Walls, of course, just sit there, and if you don't get attacked hard and early, they're a complete waste.
If you have stone, and are either protective or Isabella, picking up walls in your border cities isn't a terrible idea. But even then, there are usually better options.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
The most important point - walls in four cities are less useful against an AI invader than four archers moved to the threatened city.
Also, as the front moves away from your core, the archers can move to defend new border cities. The walls, they just sit there, they don't say nothing.
Other notes from what I remember of the save.
(1) you've got chariots, so you should by now have a clear picture of what the map looks like. Related -- you've discovered writing, so you should be learning what the neighboring lands look like.
(2) Your ratio of "hammers invested in buildings" to "hammers invested in units" seems much too high.
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
Either that's an Old Man River quotation or the reference has gone over my head entirely.
I followed through with my plan of aggression against Suryavarman, and had a wonderful stroke of luck: my friend Mehmet invaded Sury in the southwest a few moves before I was ready to invade him in the northeast! I lost 9 horses to take three cities and then he capitulated. Probably I've got it all wrong again, but I'm not displeased with how my game looks at turn 150.
I got a spaceship win in 2005 after my rivals spent all their energy fighting each other!
My first victory on Monarch.
I'd welcome demonstrations of winning this map quicker along with discussions of the tactics you used. (No fair looking at the final map!)
My first victory on Monarch.
I'd welcome demonstrations of winning this map quicker along with discussions of the tactics you used. (No fair looking at the final map!)
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
Since you asked nicely, I gave it a whirl.
Spoiler :
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
Basically, three things won that game:
1) good cities,
2) a bureaucracy capital,
and 3) great scientists.
I can't say I executed any of those perfectly, but it's good enough for a nuklomatic victory on monarch. I might play the map again for fun, and to demonstrate some other possibilities.
1) good cities,
2) a bureaucracy capital,
and 3) great scientists.
I can't say I executed any of those perfectly, but it's good enough for a nuklomatic victory on monarch. I might play the map again for fun, and to demonstrate some other possibilities.
If anybody would care to continue my education, I'm providing a new starting map for which I have completed 100 moves. I can't say I'm proud of my progress, despite trying to apply what I've read in this and other threads.
Since the focus of this thread is on getting a big lead in the early game, would you mind showing your progress every twenty moves or so? If you will justify your main strategies, that will also help. Remember, it may be obvious to you and to other folks who play as immortal deities and so forth, but it still seems like magic to me.
I'm also interested in some techniques that I've seen advanced players using here. How do you label a worker with his city of origin? How do you post a note on a particular square, showing perhaps that you're planning to chop here next?
Since the focus of this thread is on getting a big lead in the early game, would you mind showing your progress every twenty moves or so? If you will justify your main strategies, that will also help. Remember, it may be obvious to you and to other folks who play as immortal deities and so forth, but it still seems like magic to me.
I'm also interested in some techniques that I've seen advanced players using here. How do you label a worker with his city of origin? How do you post a note on a particular square, showing perhaps that you're planning to chop here next?
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
I highly recommend the BUG mod. It'll label your units, as well as about 500 other useful things. (like automatically canceling your forest chops one turn from completion, so you can pre-chop, or letting you set reminders)
Alt-S will let you set notes on tiles.
I also recommend kossin's current thread and all of his games, in fact, for early-game details.
That said, I'll try to give it a shot. Video might be the right medium for this.
Alt-S will let you set notes on tiles.
I also recommend kossin's current thread and all of his games, in fact, for early-game details.
That said, I'll try to give it a shot. Video might be the right medium for this.
rvalente74
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2011
- Messages
- 2
I've learned more from this guide than for 50 games i've played.... tks guys!
Just one question: once a great scientist pops, what is better? join the city or discover techs?
Tks in advance!!
Ronaldo.
Just one question: once a great scientist pops, what is better? join the city or discover techs?
Tks in advance!!
Ronaldo.
King Pluto
Emperor
Usually, making an Academy in your capital is the best use for an early Great Scientist. Bulbing early techs isn't optimal because an Academy or settled GS will give you more beakers long-term.
Academies excel in Bureau capitals or even in GP farm capitals with lots of scientist specialists. If you're hurting for beakers early on, settling the GS can be best if you are in danger of crashing before you make Alphabet, Currency, or CoL. Getting 7 beakers per turn to pull you out of a hole is better than getting more bpt long-term if you might never recover. Bulbing early on is generally in special cases only.
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
Depends on what you mean by "early on". Yes, the first great scientist usually doesn't want to bulb something cheap like Mathematics, but shortly after, great scientist bulbs become the single strongest thing in the game.
Since you can bulb on (almost) a straight line to Liberalism, which gives you a free tech, worth at least 3 thousand beakers, ideally you want to bulb Philosophy, Paper, Education, and Liberalism itself. Each bulb gives you well over a thousand beakers, an insane return on the effort to actually generate the scientists.
Of course your first scientist cannot bulb any of those things, so it's usually better to make an academy or settle.
By the way, I do have some video on jmrathbun's last posted game, but I'm struggling a bit with YouTube at the moment. Hopefully I'll be able to post it soon.
Since you can bulb on (almost) a straight line to Liberalism, which gives you a free tech, worth at least 3 thousand beakers, ideally you want to bulb Philosophy, Paper, Education, and Liberalism itself. Each bulb gives you well over a thousand beakers, an insane return on the effort to actually generate the scientists.
Of course your first scientist cannot bulb any of those things, so it's usually better to make an academy or settle.
By the way, I do have some video on jmrathbun's last posted game, but I'm struggling a bit with YouTube at the moment. Hopefully I'll be able to post it soon.
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