Behind in Techs.. why?? please help

[noni]

hi guys,

So this is this is the first time i play the level "Monarch" and it seems to be very hard to me when i see the AI always in front with the techs.. I am just asking myself why? am i doing some thing wrong?

Here are the facts of the my current and first game on Monarch level:

PTW III 1.27f
Level: Monarch
Civ: Babylon
1675AD

I started on a continent. With civs: france, india, china, korea. there were no wars at all since i saw they were so much in techs in front of me and i dont knew what to do. i managed to get 2 wonders: szun zu war and trade smiths...

so i just see any possibility in attacking the best civ on my continent which was france. i made mutual protection pact with china, korea, india and attacked france with my cavalary. i was in democracy but before i attacked france i moved back to monarchy. i have and still have the cavalary as my strongest unit. cus also every time france offered me peace they even dont wanted to give me 1 tech to have peace? why not? i tried first to get all 3 techs but they said no, then 2 and then even at 1 tech they said no...

and that all the time they asked for peace.. this is weird i thought to get peace the will give me atleast 1 tech.. so i always made the MPP with korea longer to keep on attacking them. my luck was really that i let korea keep attacking the citys till its so weaken that i get the city with my cavalary. and installed new gov. in this way korea sisnt even got 1 city from france though the are really attaking them all the time.

so but still i am behind in techs and i will not switch to democracy till france is rubbed away. after it i will go back to democracy. but also as i was in democracy i was behind in teachs all the time all my citys got library and universities and my civ the babylons are scientific...

so what am i doing wrong or what i have could done better i will upload the sav it is: windows. ptwIII 1.27f

i would be really happy to get tips and learn to get better and learn to get my failures known...

thnx for any help..

 

[vmxa]

It i shard to know what transpired up to this point, so I do not know why you have researched all those optional techs or if you got them in trades or stole them.

I have not played PTW in a very long time, so I do not recall all differences with C3C. However, it is still wise to race for the ToE, which means do not learn Nationalism, Communism and Sanitation before Sci Meth. It also means getting a prebuilt, if others can beat you to it.

On Monarch levle, I would not expect to be behind in tech my the time I got to the second tier industrial techs. In fact I would not be shocked to never be behind in tech at this level.

So my first question is why did you move the palace? I am rarely in favor of this gambit. It was viable in C3 and PTW, because the FP was nearly as good and you could get a second core.

To me, you waste shields or leaders doing it. The second site is not up to the original site in tile improvements and infrastructure and hence you lose a lot of productivity in the original core. I am guessing you wanted to put culture pressure on someone, but I am not fond of fooling around with flips. I just roll over them instead.

Next I see you have libs and unis and are still building libs, but have zero research. This seems to be a waste of shields. My only concern with culture is that an AI does not get to the double level.

I do not see any need for cath unless you are doing an xCC game or milking the score. I don't build them even at Sid. Better to have more units to attack with. Temples are shaky IMO. If you must build cath, do it in metros only and you do not have any of those yet.


So how does a scientific civ get behind in tech at Monarch? I would guess by not making contacts and trading well. Not getting the towns down and tiles improved in a timely manner.

Looking at the original core, you have too many tiles for too few cities. This will slow you down. You can only use 12 tiles max for about half the game per city. Forget about 21 tile spacing.

One thing I dislike about Babs is the Bowman. You can end up in a very early GA. This can be fine for those that will take the GA and smash a few civs, but most will try to build and that will be less rewarding.

A despotic GA with only a few towns and fewer mines, is not going to build many structures. It can build a lot of Bowman though.

So where you are now. Well you do not have any armies. Yes they are not as strong in PTW as C3C, but they will still kill infantry, especially if they are 4x and get some support.

You have to mass Calvs and start to take down France. BTW I do not like to see those workers within striking range of calvs and not even covered. That tile can wait until you can secure the area.

Are you massing cash for steals? Why not spent a bit on lux and put some of those entertainers back to work?

 

[noni]

hi vmxa,

uups reading your post i see that there are many things i didnt even know. seems i have to learn alot more about the game:

1. i thought u have to learn all techs before u can move on to the next stage "industrila age" for example. i didnt knew that some techs are optinal

2. then i was thinking that building forbidden palace and then a palace in this town that i will have 2 city with a palace then very wrong thought though i guess. i moved the palace to that place cus i knew that i will start attacking at some time and then i dont have to worry about culture flips in the cities there much.

i would build armies now but i only hav one leader till yet which i used for building the forbidden palace

i really trade as much as i could techs and stuff.

question: what is the GA i guess u mean the golden age but what is this? i dont know nothing about it just that once a adviser said something about it. And why and when do it end up early and not ?


and core means? sorry for asking but u see that i still dont know many things.


what u meant with this (and ToE means??) :

However, it is still wise to race for the ToE, which means do not learn Nationalism, Communism and Sanitation before Sci Meth. It also means getting a prebuilt, if others can beat you to it.

with the cash i want to buy the techs from other civs. cus it would take too many roumds now till i have one tech. and i can buy a tech in 5 rounds of gethering the cash.

u know why france is not even giving me one tech for peace?


thnx so far

noni

 

[berserks01]

I think vmxa means tech trading. In the early stage, you need to go explore and find all the other civs so you can trade techs with them to keep up with them on techs.

GA is Golden Age.

ToE is that Evolution statue thing that gives you 2 free techs.

Core means those cities closest to your capital.

You can probably get France to give you techs and cities in peace negotiation if you're whipping their arses (ie. killing more troops then loosing and capturing/razing their cities). When they feel that you're overwhelming them, you'll get more when it comes to renegotiating peace.

 

[noni]

that i did as early as i could and trade what i could..

what means GA?

france dont giving techs though they only have 2 cities left..

btw. why i cant steal techs? i planted a spy and i can say spy mission and stell techs but then i cant choose any city or say execute or smthing

 

[berserks01]

GA is Golden Age.

France isn't willing to trade ... probably because you either have a bad rep or they still believe they're better than you in some way (culturally maybe). Not sure here, it sometimes happen.

Are all your tiles properly improved? Meaning, are all of your tiles roaded and either mined or irrigated?

Do you have enough money to steal techs? If you don't, then you can't.

 

[Twonky]

Concerning the Golgen Age: this is a 20-turn period of time that your civilization enters when your unique unit has won its first battle, or you have built wonders that fit your traits.
In the GA your economy is heavily boosted. You get an extra shield for every worked tile that already produces at least one and the same goes for commerce.
Unfortunately, you can only have one GA per game.

 

[vmxa]

noni

"1. i thought u have to learn all techs before u can move on to the next stage "industrila age" for example. i didnt knew that some techs are optinal "

Those with the little circle and a dash are optional and can be skipped. Many are best ignored. You can get them from trades or stealing or even a peace deal. A few are good, in the right scenario. Say rifles, I may or may not go for it. Chiv is an other that may or may not makes sense.

"2. then i was thinking that building forbidden palace and then a palace in this town that i will have 2 city with a palace then very wrong thought though i guess. i moved the palace to that place cus i knew that i will start attacking at some time and then i dont have to worry about culture flips in the cities there much."

Yes you can only have one palace at a time. In PTW, the FP acts as a second one for corruption. Moving the palace will often counterfiet the production of the original core by introducing more corruption.

"i would build armies now but i only hav one leader till yet which i used for building the forbidden palace "

Maybe I am a bit too much of a waring player, but I would not rush an FP with my first leader. Most likely that would be to early to care about the FP in PTW.

I would rather drop the FP after going to another contient or at least having a lot more than the OCN level of cities. IOW I want to place it where it will do a lot of good, not just a little. This tends to be later.

If I am going to fight a lot and get many leaders, then I may use the 4th one for a rush.

"i really trade as much as i could techs and stuff."

Trading is a skill that takes lots of time to get a good handle on. What to trade and when and to whom are big factors. I would suggest looking in the SG forum for a training game, one that emphasizes trading to see how it is done.

"question: what is the GA i guess u mean the golden age but what is this? i dont know nothing about it just that once a adviser said something about it. And why and when do it end up early and not ?"

Golden Age is a time that lets your empire get double production for 20 turns. This is a critical time and needs to be triggered when you are ready or need it.

In the main you would prefer to not be in despotism. You would prefer to have as many towns as you can. You would prefer to have as many tiles mined as you can to get the extra shield.


"and core means? sorry for asking but u see that i still dont know many things."

A core is the cities and towns that are near the palace. They have been improved the most and have the least corruption and waste.

Asking questions is what the forum is all about.

"with the cash i want to buy the techs from other civs. cus it would take too many roumds now till i have one tech. and i can buy a tech in 5 rounds of gethering the cash."

Ok, now this is my perspective. I do not like to buy techs, especially from the top dogs. I will do it, but I prefer to not as I do not want to feed them and to have the tech pace increased.

I will steal it or beat it out of them.

"u know why france is not even giving me one tech for peace?"

Well one reaason is they may not have any. Have you looked to see if they know some that you do not have?

It is also a function of what they have. The AI does not like to give up techs that have troops or wonders or governments.

 

[noni]

very thanks vmxa for taking time to answer detailed the questions !!

u know why france is not even giving me one tech for peace?"

Well one reaason is they may not have any. Have you looked to see if they know some that you do not have?

It is also a function of what they have. The AI does not like to give up techs that have troops or wonders or governments.

i see in the trading window on france side what all techs they got. but they dont have given me one at any time. now they dont exist anymore. now i have to deal with korea i guess, who are rolling with tanks allready

and i am very behind in techs

 

[vmxa]

I forget where you are in the game, but basically you have two choices to get techs, if you cannot beat them out of anyone.

1- buy them
2- steal them

I did not list trade as I am guessing you have no trade bait. Number one is probably not much of a choice and I would only buy from the least powerful civs.

The alternative is to buy one good tech form the top dog and trade it around for all the other tech to catch up. This is a very powerful tool and I use it when I can.

#2 is not cheap, but at least you do not put money in their hands. Do no research. Hoard cash for steals. If you are at war you need a spy to steal and if not at war, be prepared to get declared on if you are not very strong and get caught.

 

[noni]

hey thanks again man.. i saw stealing will cost too much and now i have no war with anyone and i switched to democracy and put science bar up and i see i am better in researching them right now and geetin a minus each round...



i got one question does it make sence to wait with an attack of ur uu to get the golden age much later. i mean if the uu is not that good anyway. ?

 

[rysingsun]

i got one question does it make sence to wait with an attack of ur uu to get the golden age much later. i mean if the uu is not that good anyway. ?

you mean like if you are america and would have to wait till F15? on monarch level playing the americans i would try to get my GA by way of wonders since by the time you get such a late uu your fate has usually already been decided. on higher difficulty levels you simply might not have a choice.

 

[vmxa]

For most games, I would say you want to hold off triggering a GA, until it suites you. Sometime I will have an fairly early UU and hold it out until the industrial age. Bombard an attacker to 1HP and then use my UU (may need several to get a win).

In emperor or lower you have to be careful that wonders do not trigger a GA. Above that you only have to deal with a specific wonder for the most part. IOW if you build only coulple of wonders in the first two ages, be sure neither or both will not trigger for your civ.

By the industrial age, you are not concerned about an ill timed GA, any time is fine from that point on.

The whole issue is open to debate. I have had and seen others accept a GA in the early AA and it was important to have it then. Admittedly it is a special case, but say in a DemiGod AW game or a contients Sid game, you may need that GA to survive.

Also if you have an AA unit for your UU, it may not be possible to not use it.

 

[noni]

hey vmxa

just wanted to told u that i won my first monarch level game. i won with space race at 1924 AD.


i think i will play one more on monarch and then maybe step to the next level

thnx for ur help

noni

 

[vmxa]

Sounds good to me, you may want to do a domination victory before moving on.

 

[noni]

yeah i will try on that