beign a democracy SUCKS

W

widdowmaker

Maker of Widdows
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
441
Ok i hear EVERYONE or near that LIKES being a Demo. Me i am red all the way. Get comm and go to it. Yes comunal corruption is worse than NO coruption. Yes i tested the godl once. In comm it was +57 gpt. In demo it was +406. SO what. I was doing fine in tech and city imps. The ONLY argument i have heard for beign a demo is no coruption. or near that.

How about the dis advantages? NO military unit upkeep? So what all these damn tanks and moder armors walking arnoud AND THE DAMN PEOPEL WOTN HELP PAY! WTF!?! Umm TAXES!

Then there is WW. MY god the populus erupts cause you are tryin to keep russia out of their damn backyard! ingrates.

Commy has its advantages.

Unit upkeep. Bout tiem the populus paid for their military.
No or little WW. Damn straght. You let me keep america out of here.
LITTLE AND NEGLIABLE CORRUPTION! Ok it is there. but you CAN negate it. What one or 2 sheidls per city? Pocket change for my 70+ spt cities.

If there was a post aobut this alreadu i coudl nto find it.
 
The best thing about Democracy is the strategies involved if an unplanned war happens. It makes for an interesting game trying to either mollify the populace, watch your cities burn while your finest are away fighting for the people or deliberately altering your government type while in war - which road do you take?

I always find it an interesting parallel to what's happening right now in the real world in a real Democracy.
 
What is so hard about War Weariness under Democracy? Just set the City Governors to manage citizen moods, and no surprise Anarchy. I have often fought lengthy wars under Democracy - no problem. Just make sure you have built at least a Temple in every city (build it even just for the culture) and own (I stress own, not trade for) a couple of luxuries, set the slider to 10% luxury, and you are set. This has worked for me playing as both religious and non-religious civs.
 
I dont find demo that bad in wars. I think the main key is having tons of luxuries and marketplaces in most all your cities. This gives you an Amazing amount of happy faces. I also always build Universal Suffrage and put Police Stations in most of my cities. After this and putting my luxuries at btwn 10-20% I can stay at war with limited protests for about 30 turns.
 
The war-time disadvantages of democracy can be easily avoided if you're a religios civ. I find that switching to monarchy during war allows you to support units, avert WW and rush production of units w/o making your people mad.
 
If you're intending to war under democracy, or if you just wish to be prepared for the prolonged defensive and counter-offensive, I suggest first and foremost, building those improvements which will make people happy. The happier your citizenry is prior to the war, the longer it will take before they become discontented.

Second, when war starts budget for luxuries. Understand also that as the war progresses the liklihood of increased luxury spending increases.

Third, micromanage your cities. It's tedious and you could be stuck for days fighting your first world war, but you can prevent war weariness from causing riots in your cities. After you've ensured you've done the best you can as far as city improvements and you're closing in on the maximum spending you can afford while waging war (you can micromanage before increasing luxuries as well . . . choice is yours) begin to take crews from the field and throw them into reality shows which will remind your citizens of how good they really have it. Yes, I mean make entertainers.

When you've gotten to the point where you're spending the most that you can, you've made all your happy-making improvements, and you're starving your cities, you have to weigh your options. At this point, if you're winning you might want to sue for peace. If you're nearing a couple of key victories, go for them, then try to make peace. If you're having it handed to you, definitely make peace and make concessions if you need to and try to build a solid defense while at peace.

Now, speaking strategically, if you're winning in the war, you want cities with resources most of all, concentrate on them, take cities without resources if they are strong culturally to prevent flip-flop or if they're just in the way and slowing your invasion. Take cities with luxuries! Luxuries make people happy and therefore can prolong the current war if you're connected to your empire with your luxuries. At worst they'll help you the next time some tin-pot dictator tries to encroach on your bloody territory.
 
Sorry. I was typing fast. My point is that i hear people CLAIM that demo is "best". Also if you consider america a democracy you are wrong. The game has it right. America is a republic. If we were a demo every citizen woudl vote on EVERY issue. No senate. No house of reps. No electoral collage. In a republic there are "states" and a federal government (look at america).


But i just see little to NO point in being a demo. The people want to be on their high horse not paying for the fine men and women i got fighting to protect them. Then let them die. When i KNOW i got the game won i delcare war with everyone and disband my military and switch to demo. Just to watch my peopel get wiped out. Bunch of pricks. I just hate being a demo.

What is everyone elses opinion?
 
Well, one could argue that the lack of support which your people are showing to the military in the form of direct subsidies and their dislike of war are caused by their love of their father's, brothers, and anyone else who might be serving in the military.

First of all, the lack of support isn't really an issue. In democracy you're making more money from your people through their work.

As for their lack of support for war, war is going to cause many deaths. People want to avoid it. You'll notice that when you're attacked you'll experience a longer period of time before war-weariness becomes a factor. Your people are outraged and they want to regain any lost territory and they want to punish the offenders.

Granted, the United States is a republican form of government, but you can see the same effects happening here. When the United States was attacked most people were very much in favor of a punitive war against the guilty. Now, we're examing a agressive strike against Iraq and we're seeing protests of sizes unseen since the conflict in Viet Nam. It won't take long for war-weariness to reach heights which will cause civil troubles back home. People don't want to see other people die for little reason. You'll see, the more influence that the people have in government the less likely that government is going to be to fight an unpopular war.

I think the last paragraph may be a little convoluted. It if is I apologize. Let me know and I'll try to clear it up a touch.
 
Republic in the game represents the classic Roman Republic. It occurs at about the right time and (Correct me if I'm wrong) only the wealthy got to vote. (or something like that)

Democracy represents the US/UK/France/Russia/Japan/Austria/South Korea/Spain/Latvia and about a hundred other nations that elect representetive bodies. Remember, communism is an economic system, not a government. Democracy represents capitalism with the republic form of government.

That is my $2/100
 
A classic democracy does not exist in the game because it was little used and it would only be feasible in a One City Challenge. ;)
 
widdowmaker, your point about not supporting the military doesn't make much sense given that you admit that when you are making 57 gpt in comuinism you are making 406 gpt. So who cares if each piece is deducted sperately if after the fact you have close to 8 times more money.

As for science, if you are keeping up in communism than I'm guessing you are on chieften, maybe warlord. You would leap ahead in democracy. You should also see how many units your core cities will pop out every two rounds in Democracy to support your wars. If you get Suffrage, then WW is also not that difficult to manage for Wars that don't last much longer than 20 turns (many claim to war much longer under democracy.

With all that said, if you are going to spend most of your time at war, I agree Democracy is not your best bet. If you can get Suffrage, go with Republic. It is almost democracy and with Suffrage WW isn't a big deal. If you are constantly (not just mostly) at war, I would follow DaveMcW's advice and use Monarchy.

Being the peace loving frog that I am, democracy is the best bet.
 
America is a Democratic Republic like the UK, Canada, Australia and most other modern nations. Its impossible to have a real democracy in a country with 300 million people. Could you imagine having to go vote every single day on the thousands of issues in the US Congress every year? Ouch. That's why we elect people to do it (though they rarely do what say they will).
 
I'm not a great player, but I've got a pretty good game going on Deity now. For a long time I went for Monarchy and Communism because I thought the military police aspect and support for garrison units were the most valuable things a government could give you. In those games I leaned toward being a warmonger. Then I tried peaceful builder under Republic and Democracy and found a whole hew game, where your workers were more productive and you were rolling in money. In Democracy, in the Industrial Age, you think nothing of paying 5500 gold points for a tech. Or, you can have 3000 gold points and move the science slide bar up to where you get techs in 5 turns and go 150 gold points negative on your cash flow but that's AOK because you can stand the negative for much longer than 5 turns. As long as you are at peace, the cost of maintaining a reasonable number of defensive units turns out to be far less than the gain in gold point production.
 
I think you need to calm down a bit when you post first of all. back to the point a demo rocks for some stratigys but will fail at others personaly I always go demo as I get advances faster and have alot more money, on the other had if im a religous civ I will switch to comunisum for the war. Also as a demo you could try having the ai declaer war on you I can stay at war for a very long time if the ai declares war on me in a demo.
 
The biggest thing that keeps me out of communism is the "rush unit" cost. If I could rush with $$$ like in Monarchy, then the Communist regime would be useful. As it it I lose people at a rate that makes it impossible to rush anything useful.

This make it difficult to rush culture improvements in newly captured cities. I sometimes use communism when I'm religious, but usually not even then.

War weariness is a pain in the rear, but by spending lots of money, I can offset it, so I have to say that Demo may suck, but Communism is much worse.
 
wow. sometimes the obvious is overlooked. I never thought of usint a demo that way before. having the ai attack you...it's kind of backwards psych. cool
 
BTW heres a post i started asking basic questions about communism and the helpful answers people provided, good if your wondering how it works still: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45364

Basically communism is superior when engaged in mass conquest. For one, right when you take over a city you need to keep as many people happy as you can so it dont go into revolt and jump back to sides. Communism is the best with this since it allows up to 4 soldiers to act as police. Under republic or demo the only alternative is to start rushing things like cathedrals which adds up real fast if you've just taken 4 or 5 cities in the last few turns. Second, plain and simple with a large empire strewn across a continent and across oceans, the corruption you would experience with any other government except communism will make a large portion of these cities virtually useless.

So ya its no doubt a well managed republic or democracy can wage war just fine. But waging war is different than say invading and capturing 30 to 40 cities over time like i have on a huge map. Communism might not be superior for war, but it is superior for conquest.
 
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