Benefits of First Strike

[Watiggi]

I thought first strikes only applied when a unit defends itself. Is this not the case?

No, works both on offense and defense

 

[Pantastic]

One thing to bear in mind is that drill I and II are not that great of promotions, it's going all the way down with drill for huge masses of first strikes that gets scary. If you're using drill promotions, start out with them - if you blow a promotion or two on something else, it just won't be nearly as good. Once you do have a drill IV crossbow/Cho-Ko-Nu, with a little coddling it's easy to get him up to crazy experience levels.

 

[eric_]

No, works both on offense and defense

Wow...that's a pretty huge oversight on my part! Good to know...

 

[Watiggi]

Yeah, Drill I is rather weak (1 first strike chance) and Drill II not much better (1 first strike). It is when Drill IV (2 first strikes) combines with Drill III (2 first strike chances), II and I does it all come together. I think it is 4-7 first strikes for a Drill IV Archer. That's 4-7 chances at landing a first strike. If your strengths are equal or you are ahead, then you will be more likely to land multiple first strikes consistantly.

 

[ronnybiggs]

I think this works really well if you're defending a city against an AI's assinine barrage of dozens of units. Rather than each attacking unit having the capacity to deal damage to your defenders, a Cho-Ko-Nu with 6 or 7 first strikes could take out a good number of them without them laying a finger on your troops.

Unless, that is, if they made each first strike too puny to bother with.

 

[eriadoc]

Am I correct in assuming that, since you should be higher strength than your opponent unit, giving Drill promotions to city attackers is a poor idea? City defend bonuses affect defender Strength numbers, right? Having multiple first strikes as an underdog is not as beneficial as having City Attack promotions to even the odds, right?

 

[PugFugly]

Do catapults inflict their collateral damage before the first strikes are calculated?
Or can you completely snuff a catapult attack by killing it with first strikes?

 

[Watiggi]

Collateral damage is inflicted before combat even begins. So there is no way you can stop collateral damage, even with first strikes.

Am I correct in assuming that, since you should be higher strength than your opponent unit, giving Drill promotions to city attackers is a poor idea? City defend bonuses affect defender Strength numbers, right? Having multiple first strikes as an underdog is not as beneficial as having City Attack promotions to even the odds, right?

That's really up to you. With a lower strength, you have lower odds of actually wining a first strike round. Essentially, if your relative strength is real low compared to know you are attacking, then you might just end up wasting your first strikes.

If you have a 1 in 5 chance of winning the round (because of your relatively low strength), but you have say 4 first strikes, that would mean you really have 4 chances of winning a 1 in 5 round and dealing damage. If you loose any of those 4 first strike rounds, you wont get damaged, that's all. I will leave it up to you to decide whether it's worth it or not. Really it's about whether you would win a 1 in 5 round enough times to beat the opponent - even if you had 4 free chances at trying. Remember that they are just normal units if the first strike rounds fail.

Watiggi

 

[ronnybiggs]

collateral damage is inflicted before combat even begins. So there is no way you can stop collateral damage, even with first strikes.

That really blows. Are you sure of this? How do you know?

I mean, isn't the point of first strike so a stronger unit can cancel out a horde of weaker units? I guess since a catapult is a siege weapon it should be able to weaken a city. But still, it blows.

 

[eric_]

Collateral damage is inflicted before combat even begins. So there is no way you can stop collateral damage, even with first strikes.

I've noticed, though, that sometimes I will attack, say, a Musketman with a cat. Sometimes every unit BUT the one I'm attacking directly suffers damage. So the Musketman basically wins the battle without suffering a hit, but the other units suffer collateral damage.

 

[Watiggi]

That really blows. Are you sure of this? How do you know?

The SDK. I have read the battle loop code. The code that deals with the collateral damage is done before it enters into the battle loop (which deals with all the rounds until a unit is killed). The first strike aspect of it is delt with during the normal rounds (during the battle loop code).

I've noticed, though, that sometimes I will attack, say, a Musketman with a cat. Sometimes every unit BUT the one I'm attacking directly suffers damage. So the Musketman basically wins the battle without suffering a hit, but the other units suffer collateral damage.

I think collateral damage is delt to other units in the stack except the one you attack. You just got your butt kicked by the Musketmen, that's all. What's important here though, is that the collateral damage has certain limits (which depends on the seige unit) like the number of units it can hit and how healthy they have to be before they can be hit. Catapults can only hit 6 units and can only deal damage to units with more than 50% damage. Also note that collateral damage is dealt randomly to the units in the stack - and some units will get hit with collateral damage more than once while others wont be touched at all.

 

[eric_]

It makes sense that the units NOT being directly engaged (i.e. those that would suffer collateral damage) wouldn't tap in to their first strike capability.

 

[ronnybiggs]

It makes sense that the units NOT being directly engaged (i.e. those that would suffer collateral damage) wouldn't tap in to their first strike capability.

Yeah, see it would be nice if first strikes got handed off first, and if the striker manages to take out the catapult with those, the cat would basically be destroyed before it could launch the attack. I could be swayed by an argument that then cities would be impenetrable. Then again, that's the whole point of getting someone Drill 4. The idea is they're so drilled to strike anything in adjacent tiles, nobody could even see the town without a shot in the eye.

What would be really cool is if a unit with Drill 3 and/or 4 could take a pot shot at any unit passing through an adjacent tile. That would bring back a bit of that zone of control so awesome in civ 1/2.

 

[eric_]

Yeah, see it would be nice if first strikes got handed off first, and if the striker manages to take out the catapult with those, the cat would basically be destroyed before it could launch the attack. I could be swayed by an argument that then cities would be impenetrable. Then again, that's the whole point of getting someone Drill 4.

Yeah, that does make sense. And it wouldn't make cities impenetrable, as there's no guarantee that all first strikes will be successful. But a drill 4 city defender (longbow, musket, rifle, infantry, etc) would definitely eat up a lot of siege units.

 

[Watiggi]

That would need quite a reworking of the algorithm too. The first strike code is apart of the normal battle loop code. Besides... the unit being attacked doesn't suffer collateral damage anyway.

 

[ronnybiggs]

Besides... the unit being attacked doesn't suffer collateral damage anyway.

But that's the point. If the unit being attacked isn't suffering damage, that means he wiped out the siege unit before it could even launch an attack. Why is it everyone else in the tile takes damage?

If you have to unduly tweak the algorithm it might mean the algorithm itself is screwy. Isn't collateral damage dealt to all units as part of a normal battle strike? It should be as simple as, innstead of collateral damage -> first strike -> battle, just do first strike -> collateral damage -> battle.

Maybe my understanding of collateral damage is a bit off. Still, as a disclaimer I have to say the siege units are a definite improvement over Civ 1-3. Especially 3. Having those stacks of 20 artillery that wouldn't die was really annoying.

 

[Watiggi]

No, it's Collateral -> first strike during battle. There is no seperate first strike rounds, it's all in the main battle loop. The collateral damage algorithm is done seperately and before the battle loop begins. The first strikes are calculated and tested while the battle resolves itself.

 

[El Koeno]

Yeah, that does make sense. And it wouldn't make cities impenetrable, as there's no guarantee that all first strikes will be successful. But a drill 4 city defender (longbow, musket, rifle, infantry, etc) would definitely eat up a lot of siege units.

And on top of that: You could give your cats some drill promotions too, to cancel the defenders first strikes. Of course it would probably be too much to ask of the AI to actually use it....

 

[ronnybiggs]

You could give your cats some drill promotions too, to cancel the defenders first strikes.

That doesn't make much sense - catapults are by nature slow and need to be set up, so they're sitting ducks till they're ready to strike. First strike immunities are reserved for more mobile or ranged units like Horse Archers.

 

[El Koeno]

That doesn't make much sense - catapults are by nature slow and need to be set up, so they're sitting ducks till they're ready to strike. First strike immunities are reserved for more mobile or ranged units like Horse Archers.

But first strikes cancel eachother out I think. So if your catapult has a lot of them, it could reduce the archer's ability to win the combat before collateral damage is applied. I agree that it might not really make too much sense. It's highly unlikely that they'll change the combat-code though, so it doesn't really matter anyway whether it makes sense or not.