Best Civs for a Cultural Victory?

[BalthusTraveler]

Hello, I recently bought C3C and am just getting started with Civilization games. I won a Histograph Victory as the Babylonians due to the fact that I had a great deal more culture than any other Civ. I have a few questions--

1. What are the best civs for a cultural victory other than Babylon?

2. Which is generally the better route--the "legendary city" route or the "total culture" route--to a cultural victory?

3. I always seem to lag behind in military improvements when going for Cultural Victory. Is there any way to counteract this, or does going for Cultural Victory basically mean you can't use a military option beyond a certain time period?

 

[Kumquat]

Babylon is the undisputed culture king in Civ3, Religious and Scientific are the traits that give you cheap culture buildings.

 

[MAS]

Hello, I recently bought C3C and am just getting started with Civilization games. I won a Histograph Victory as the Babylonians due to the fact that I had a great deal more culture than any other Civ. I have a few questions--

1. What are the best civs for a cultural victory other than Babylon?

Seafaring for 20k single city

2. Which is generally the better route--the "legendary city" route or the "total culture" route--to a cultural victory?

Define better!

You play both kind of games completely differently.

In a 100K civ wide game, you start off like a domination/conquest start, conquer close to the domination limit, (unless you turned that off, then you can conquer more) then you plop down cities everywhere and poprush culture buildings in every city.

In A 20K single city game, you'll chose one of your first 2 cities (capital or the 2th city you settle) as the epic city site, then you focus as hard as you can on planting every wonder and culture improvement in that city as early as possible. (for the 1000 year doubling effect)
your other city must then both continue building the rest of your empire as usual, and support the 20k site with additional workers to make it grow faster. This will set you behind in empire growth compared to other game types.

3. I always seem to lag behind in military improvements when going for Cultural Victory. Is there any way to counteract this, or does going for Cultural Victory basically mean you can't use a military option beyond a certain time period?

No, conquests is the bread and butter of civilization. Conquer first, build culture later, that way, you'll have the best of both and don't lag behind.

The only difference with a non-culture game is:
100K: you'll stop conquering before you reach the domination limit, and you poprush cultural city improvements instead of creating scientist farms.

20K: in the 20K game, you'll lag behind at first because at early times half of your emire is building wonders, but once you've digged yourself out, its just like any other game. Don't build tempels and cathedrals anywhere except for the 20k site. Except for the 20K site, your other cities can build all the military you need.

 

[NickyH]

Babylon must be the best for 100k. 20K is a more difficult choice. Check this excellent thread on 20k: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76143

In 20k-games, wonders are the most important thing, and because of that, I'd choose a scientific civ. It doesn't only give you cheap culture when you build libraries and universities, but, more importantly, they give you a higher probability to get scientific great leaders, who can rush your wonders.

Byzantines are very good for 20k. If you choose them, you can always build one of the best wonders for a 20k game: The Colossus. (You always start on the coast and have bronze working.) On top of that, you have the benefits of a scientific civ.

If you play with other victories in mind, I don't like the unique unit of the Byzantines, as it is a naval unit. That's not much of problem in a 20k game, since you will most probably kick off your golden age by finishing a wonder.

 

[RFHolloway]

In Conquests for 100k the choice is between Babylonians, Celts and Sumeria. You are looking for lots of cities, placed close together, you should end in feudalism, and rush the buildings with population. Because of these factors generating population quickly is also an advantage, so agricultural is a huge benefit as well. I prefer the celts personally, as I like the galic swordsman, which helps me conquer territory. The overall strategy is to gain the pyramids, and the temple of artemis, and then rush libraries and cathedrals in as many cities as you can build. stop researching at mono theism (you can go to military theory if you need to).

 

[Tone]

In 20k-games, wonders are the most important thing, and because of that, I'd choose a scientific civ.

Spot on! An early SGL or two can be a game breaker.

I've played a few of my more recent 20K games as either the Persians or Ottomans. This is because they start with Masonry and if you are lucky enough to get your first SGL very early on Pyramids can help compensate for the fact that one of your main cities is not providing anything for the empire. The Persians have a decent AA UU so you can start going for an army (and thus open up the excellent Heroic Epic build) relatively early in the game.

 

[MAS]

I'll elaborate on the seafaring bit, It makes you start on the coast for sure. This opens up the ability to build coastal wonders in your capital. More wonder options is good for 20k victories.

So this means a seafaring/scientific civ: Byzantines.

 

[Simak]

What are scientific leaders? How do you get them? Are they different than the military leaders I get from battles? Don't military leaders also have the ability to rush development?

 

[NickyH]

It depends on what version of Civ 3 you are playing. If you have "Vanilla" you only get military leaders. In C3C you have a small chance of getting a scientific great leader every time you are the first civ to learn a tech. If you get one, he shows up in your capitol. Military leaders can build armies, rush buildings and small wonders, but not great wonders. Scientific great leaders can't build armies, but they can rush any building, including great wonders. (And according to civilopedia you can use them to speed up your scientific research for at period of 20 turns, but this is wrong, since there is a bug that disables the scientific boost they should be able to provide.)

 

[The Professor]

Another plug for the Seafaring trait: an important part of getting the early Great Wonders is being in control of the pace of technology, which is easiest to do if you choose an archipelago map, so that the AI's don't meet each other very quickly, and if you're Seafaring, you can probably meet everyone, and trade with everyone comparitively early (especially if you build the Great Lighthouse in your 20K city).

Since the AI is terrible at naval invasions, this also means that you don't have to worry as much about your military, which will probably suffer a bit in the early game, when one of your most productive towns is building culture, instead of military, workers, and settlers.

 

[MAS]

What are scientific leaders? How do you get them? Are they different than the military leaders I get from battles? Don't military leaders also have the ability to rush development?

In vanilla and PTW, there is only one great leader type, and it can rush any structure, plus build armies.

In Conquest, Military great leaders can no longer rush great wonders. But the Scientific great leader can. You get a SGL from being the first to research a certain tech (tech from goody huts don't count, the free tech from philosophy does) The chance is 3%, and 5% if you have the scientiffic trait.

 

[garyg]

In a 100K civ wide game, you start off like a domination/conquest start, conquer close to the domination limit, (unless you turned that off, then you can conquer more) then you plop down cities everywhere and poprush culture buildings in every city.

No, conquests is the bread and butter of civilization. Conquer first, build culture later, that way, you'll have the best of both and don't lag behind.

The only difference with a non-culture game is:
100K: you'll stop conquering before you reach the domination limit, and you poprush cultural city improvements instead of creating scientist farms.
.

I know this is the 'standard' way to win a cultural game but I have to say that I find it silly and kind of against the 'spirit' of the win condition.
I don't believe every win condition should be reduced to kill everyone off till they can't compete and then choose the way you want to win.
What's the point? Why stop just short of domination, lengthen the game and then win some other way. I mean the same strategy could apply to a Space Race victory. It kind of takes the challenge out of it.

When I play for a 100K I build culture right away and all through the game. It flavors the way the game is played. I'm not saying that I don't war, especially if another civ has close to half my culture, but I consider 100K a vacation from Dom and Conquest wins. In a culture win I get to build all those things I never do like temples and caths but don't build markets. I know this strategy won't work above emperor level so that's where I play my Culture games so far.

I just seems to me that the Domination first strategy is kind of 'One size fits all'. It misses the point of what a Cultural win experience should be.

 

[MAS]

Well, I agree that the game is a bit unbalanced in favour of aggressive conquest.

And you are correc about the space race, I would advice such a road to victory, just as you said.

But anyway, even if you play more in the spirit of the game, for a 100K culture victory, you'll probably want to conquer a lot. Far more than for a 20k victory, or a dimplomatic victory.


That said, I do personally play games with less, or even no conquest. Just for the fun of it.

 

[Simak]

I have the civ gold edition. It has the conquests, but I'm rather sure that I can use my military leaders to shield up great wonders. Although, I could be mistaken, I'm still kinda new at this.

 

[MAS]

If I'm not mistaking, "gold edition" is a combo pack of Vanilla and the PTW expansion.

In the Conquest expansion, MGL can rush small wonders and the palace, just not great wonders.

 

[Xethorsiph]

I just cured myself of Gold edition by getting C3C (AWESOME GAME), and yes, military leaders CAN rush great wonders in Civ III Gold.

 

[Desertsnow]

Expansionistic might work too, for 20k games. Snag the early techs from huts, get get an early start on the early wonders.
I've had most of my cultural wins (either way) with religious civs. A few cheap temples early on has made the difference. On the other hand, I can see the advantage of using a scientific civ, with cheap universities.

 

[Cerenkov]

I've had good luck in 20k OCC games with the commercial trait. Cheap marketplaces, banks, etc. might not seem helpful since they don't generate culture, but it means more money for cashrushing other improvements and thus more time spent building Wonders.

I recently won a OCC game by 20k culture victory as the French. That was my first victory with less than 200 points. :O

 

[PaperBeetle]

Commercial civs don't get cheap markets and banks. No one does. Indeed, for a OCC, commercial is almost totally worthless as you don't have any corruption anyway. Its only benefits are to start Alphabet and to get +1gpt in the city square.

 

[MAS]

For an OCC, religious and scientific are the best traits bar none. Less time building those structures and more time building wonders. Not to mention, you'll have access to the tech with important OCC wonders right away.