Best Tradition?

[bengalryan9]

What do you think is the single best/most powerful tradition in the game?

 

[evonannoredars]

Single most powerful is tricky to choose, though I think it could likely be an Antiquity one considering its effects would have the biggest overall impact.

Greece has some pretty powerful ones (+25% commander experience, +50% befriend independent) and Carthage's +25% Gold and Food from Towns is very nice, though Exploration has a few good ones - Hawaii's +1 Culture on Marine Terrain is great if you plan well for it, and Bulgaria's Yields to Towns when Pillaging and +50% Pillaging Yields are ofc a v powerful synergy with Buganda - but they can be more dependent on how you play, whereas those Antiquity ones are much more likely to get a lot of use no matter what.

Also going to plug my civs overview sheet here, which I found v helpful for browsing through the traditions

 

[bengalryan9]

I need to take some time to look through them all but one that came immediately to mind for me is Shell Tempered Pottery. That's a lot of gold...

 

[Calcifer]

I really like Aksum’s +2 culture on resources adjacent to coast

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

Greece has some pretty powerful ones (+50% befriend independent)

This one plus the Shawnee one that does the same thing are incredibly synergized.

I need to take some time to look through them all but one that came immediately to mind for me is Shell Tempered Pottery. That's a lot of gold...

This one I would say is also strong: you are naturally going to have high gold adjacency from it from your Science buildings and you can get it on your Palace and City Halls if you settle correctly and resources don't move a lot in the age transition.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Xenia is indeed the best tradition in the game. It's.... well, quite close because Shell-Tempered Pottery is also up there. The Abbasid one that gives science adjacency from the City Hall is also absurd.

My two fave ones are the Han tradition that gives +1 influence from Science buildings and the Mughal one that gives a flat out reduction towards purchasing anything.

 

[bengalryan9]

I still think Xenia is overrated. That's not to say it's not good - it is! - but I think people severely overstate just how strong it is as the game currently stands.
1) The AI doesn't really care all that much about befriending city states, and I feel confident that no matter what leader our civ I choose to play I can suzerain almost every single one on the map if I want to.
2) You can get the exact same affect with just two Diplomatic attribute points. Yes, they stack, but that doesn't change what I said in #1 above and it's just even *more* overkill. Plus how many other civ-specific traditions are available to every leader/civ in the game through attribute points? Not many, and that makes it less unique and (IMO) a bit less exciting.
3) Greece already has a bunch more influence points than most other civs are going to have, further negating just how strong Xenia is.
4) Unlock something like, say, Shell-Tempered Pottery you're not going to keep it slotted the whole game if you're playing optimally - you'll slot Xenia for a couple of turns here or there and then replace it with something else until it's needed again.

Now again - and I can't stress this enough - Xenia is good. It will let you claim those city state bonuses a bit earlier and that has value, but I just don't think it's anywhere near the strongest tradition in the game despite the fact I know a LOT of people disagree with me on this. People like the idea of what Xenia could do for you so much they overestimate what it actually does for you.

Quite frankly I feel like if I played Greece and didn't use Xenia at all my results wouldn't really change all that much. I'd still be suzerain to every city state on the map with no issue whatsoever.

Note: the minute the game gets patched to make the AI push harder for city states, this whole argument goes away and I'll be right there with you all claiming Xenia is at the top, but as the game stands right now, I don't buy it.

 

[evonannoredars]

I still think Xenia is overrated. That's not to say it's not good - it is! - but I think people severely overstate just how strong it is as the game currently stands.
1) The AI doesn't really care all that much about befriending city states, and I feel confident that no matter what leader our civ I choose to play I can suzerain almost every single one on the map if I want to.
2) You can get the exact same affect with just two Diplomatic attribute points. Yes, they stack, but that doesn't change what I said in #1 above and it's just even *more* overkill. Plus how many other civ-specific traditions are available to every leader/civ in the game through attribute points? Not many, and that makes it less unique and (IMO) a bit less exciting.
3) Greece already has a bunch more influence points than most other civs are going to have, further negating just how strong Xenia is.
4) Unlock something like, say, Shell-Tempered Pottery you're not going to keep it slotted the whole game if you're playing optimally - you'll slot Xenia for a couple of turns here or there and then replace it with something else until it's needed again.

Now again - and I can't stress this enough - Xenia is good. It will let you claim those city state bonuses a bit earlier and that has value, but I just don't think it's anywhere near the strongest tradition in the game despite the fact I know a LOT of people disagree with me on this. People like the idea of what Xenia could do for you so much they overestimate what it actually does for you.

Quite frankly I feel like if I played Greece and didn't use Xenia at all my results wouldn't really change all that much. I'd still be suzerain to every city state on the map with no issue whatsoever.

Note: the minute the game gets patched to make the AI push harder for city states, this whole argument goes away and I'll be right there with you all claiming Xenia is at the top, but as the game stands right now, I don't buy it.

good point, although I will counter that being able to suzerain IPs cheaper also means you can get them faster, ie the city-state bonuses can start stacking up sooner. AI def need to be encouraged to befriend IPs more though!

 

[disjointaccount]

I still think Xenia is overrated. That's not to say it's not good - it is! - but I think people severely overstate just how strong it is as the game currently stands.
1) The AI doesn't really care all that much about befriending city states, and I feel confident that no matter what leader our civ I choose to play I can suzerain almost every single one on the map if I want to.
2) You can get the exact same affect with just two Diplomatic attribute points. Yes, they stack, but that doesn't change what I said in #1 above and it's just even *more* overkill. Plus how many other civ-specific traditions are available to every leader/civ in the game through attribute points? Not many, and that makes it less unique and (IMO) a bit less exciting.
3) Greece already has a bunch more influence points than most other civs are going to have, further negating just how strong Xenia is.
4) Unlock something like, say, Shell-Tempered Pottery you're not going to keep it slotted the whole game if you're playing optimally - you'll slot Xenia for a couple of turns here or there and then replace it with something else until it's needed again.

Now again - and I can't stress this enough - Xenia is good. It will let you claim those city state bonuses a bit earlier and that has value, but I just don't think it's anywhere near the strongest tradition in the game despite the fact I know a LOT of people disagree with me on this. People like the idea of what Xenia could do for you so much they overestimate what it actually does for you.

Quite frankly I feel like if I played Greece and didn't use Xenia at all my results wouldn't really change all that much. I'd still be suzerain to every city state on the map with no issue whatsoever.

Note: the minute the game gets patched to make the AI push harder for city states, this whole argument goes away and I'll be right there with you all claiming Xenia is at the top, but as the game stands right now, I don't buy it.

Idk, accounting for both dispersing and suzing, I'd say the AI takes roughly half of all IPs early-ish in each age. That's a whole bunch of city states I could have gotten quicker with more influence. And regardless, the more influence I save (which is even more if I stack befriending discounts) the more I have for endeavors, war support spam, and reconciliation (especially now you can run it with multiple people). I think what it comes down to is that factoring in all of the different (very good!) ways influence can be used, if you're looking to spend it on all of them, even as Greece, you'll find yourself wanting more of it. So on that basis, Xenia is top-tier imo.

Shell Tempered Pottery is the other obvious candidate, but just for fun I'll mention Kambu-Mera. What it does is a bit niche, but it's very good at what it does.

 

[bengalryan9]

Idk, accounting for both dispersing and suzing, I'd say the AI takes roughly half of all IPs early-ish in each age.

This has not been my experience, at all, and I play on Immortal. Maybe 1-2 city states get wiped off the map if they spawn right on an AI's border, and maybe I'll miss 1-2 of them that the AI actually does suzerain, but I would say *at worst* in any game I'm getting 80%+ of the city states under my control, regardless of who I'm playing as. It's to the point where sometimes when I play a game I'll avoid going after every single city state just to try to get a more balanced experience, quite frankly.

Even in modern age when there might be a dozen city states spawning across the map on turn 2 I have zero issue becoming suzerain to pretty much all of them if I want to be, and in the rare cases where I don't go after one a lot of time it remains neutral for the entire game. The AI just could not care less about them, and a lot of times these city states are right there next to their lands (so it's not like the AI just hasn't found them yet).

Maybe it's different on Deity, but I'm a little skeptical of that. Maybe it depends on opposing leaders (Some may value city states more? Machiavelli, perhaps?), but I haven't really seen that either.

 

[disjointaccount]

I play a variety of Sovereign-Deity and I'd say the 50%ish figure is pretty consistent across all three of those? At least, I haven't noticed any major departure from it on any particular difficulty. It might just be down to luck, or I could see it being specific AI leaders that have specific preferences towards IPs. It definitely does sound like the AI in my games is going for them more than yours, though.

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

Back to Xenia, it's strongest in the Antiquity and early to mid-Exploration when you don't have a lot of incoming Influence. It can also be useful if you want to continue to spending influence on other civs while still getting city-states. I agree it drops off hard in late Exploration and Modern since you can easily get a ton of influence. Also, I don't believe Xenia and Helikhilenawewipe (Shawnee's version) work with Siam's ability to instantly get any city-state.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Xenia allows you to befriend each city state without letting AI befriend or destroy any. Also, befriending them earlier allows you to just run through science tree unlocking things like factories or space flight really early. When I play with Xenia, science victory actually is competitive wven if I'm totally peaceful (where economic usually shines).

 

[bengalryan9]

Xenia allows you to befriend each city state without letting AI befriend or destroy any. Also, befriending them earlier allows you to just run through science tree unlocking things like factories or space flight really early. When I play with Xenia, science victory actually is competitive wven if I'm totally peaceful (where economic usually shines).

That is all true, and that's why people love Xenia so much. My point is I can do that already anyways even on Immortal, and if I can already do something pretty easily is making that something even easier all that impactful? I'd at least argue not as much as people think.

Like I said, it's good and it has advantages, but the best? I don't agree.

 

[bengalryan9]

I think I could even make the argument that getting city state bonuses early isn't even as beneficial as folks might think.

Consider the following scenario: You start a game as Greece. Early on, you discover the closest independent power, and they are both non-aggressive and scientific. You think to yourself: "Great, now is the time for Xenia to shine!", and you quickly become suzerain to the power in half the time you would otherwise. Now you get to choose your bonus... what are you getting?
-Do you take the bonus that gives +1 science to all science buildings? Ok, cool. How many science buildings do you even have at this point? 1? 2? Maybe even none at all? Getting this bonus early did little-to-nothing for you.
-Do you take the bonus science to codices? Do you even have a codex yet?
-Do you take the UI step pyramid? Do you have an economy strong enough or have you claimed enough rural tiles to allow you to buy a few this early on?
-Do you take the free technology? Getting earlier suzerain status doesn't necessarily equate to you being suzerain of *more* city states by the end of the age, so you're probably not getting any *extra* free techs out of this (MAYBE you'll get 1-2 if you do manage to save a city state that the AI would otherwise eliminate), and now because you took it earlier you're also getting *cheaper* techs as rewards.

How many of these are so impactful that you're really going to benefit from becoming suzerain early as Greece? I don't think it's near as strong as it seems on the surface. Besides that, you're also probably stuck slotting a policy that doesn't do anything at all on the turns you aren't spending influence on city states - early on in the game you very likely don't have a bunch of extra policy cards to rotate in and out so you may have to keep Xenia slotted even when you're not actually getting any use out of it whatsoever, and it gives you absolutely nothing on those turns. I'd almost go so far to say that cancels out whatever you're getting out of that first early bonus altogether considering pretty much any other civ's tradition is likely giving you some type of yield while slotted in that same spot.

I actually also disagree with some others in that I think Xenia shines way more in the late game/modern age than it does early on... when it's turn 2 of the modern age and a dozen or more independent powers spawn across the entire map, that's when you *really* want to save influence to suzerain as many as you can as quickly as you can to take advantage of those bonuses as fast as possible.

 

[stealth_nsk]

-Do you take the free technology? Getting earlier suzerain status doesn't necessarily equate to you being suzerain of *more* city states by the end of the age, so you're probably not getting any *extra* free techs out of this (MAYBE you'll get 1-2 if you do manage to save a city state that the AI would otherwise eliminate), and now because you took it earlier you're also getting *cheaper* techs as rewards.

This option, with zero choice. At least on Immortal, I never fail to befriend the majority of independents on the homelands and with Xenia I usually befriend all. Cheap techs are not a problem, because you'll get all the techs you need anyway and fast.

Not to mention how devastating Xenia is in Exploration where you start with already explored homelands and Modern, where you start with majority of the map explored.

 

[disjointaccount]

Do you take the bonus that gives +1 science to all science buildings? Ok, cool. How many science buildings do you even have at this point? 1? 2? Maybe even none at all? Getting this bonus early did little-to-nothing for you.
-Do you take the bonus science to codices? Do you even have a codex yet?
-Do you take the UI step pyramid? Do you have an economy strong enough or have you claimed enough rural tiles to allow you to buy a few this early on?

All of these are great though. An extra 1 or 2 science or culture early on snowballs into huge results. Getting those extra yields faster is a big deal. If we say someone like Ben is a good leader because his extra science on production buildings means you get that littlebbit of extra science on your brickyard from very early on, surely the more you can do the same with IPs, the better?

Plus, there are lots of specific circumstances where you might want something ASAP. For example, if I identify my neighbour is a prime candidate for rushing before they get a second settlement online, I want the war support bonus as quickly as possible.

 

[bengalryan9]

This option, with zero choice. At least on Immortal, I never fail to befriend the majority of independents on the homelands and with Xenia I usually befriend all. Cheap techs are not a problem, because you'll get all the techs you need anyway and fast.

Not to mention how devastating Xenia is in Exploration where you start with already explored homelands and Modern, where you start with majority of the map explored.

I agree that I would go the free tech route as well, but I don't really consider it a huge advantage because whether I'm playing Greece or anybody else who chose that bonus, I'm almost certainly getting the exact same # of free techs when all is said and done by the end of the age. It's not really giving you anything extra unless you manage to save multiple city states that would otherwise be wiped off the map by AI, and in my experience that just doesn't happen all that much despite everyone's insistence that it does.

Again, I'm not saying Xenia doesn't provide benefits - it does! - I'm just saying that it's not nearly the level of difference many claim it to be.

All of these are great though. An extra 1 or 2 science or culture early on snowballs into huge results. Getting those extra yields faster is a big deal. If we say someone like Ben is a good leader because his extra science on production buildings means you get that littlebbit of extra science on your brickyard from very early on, surely the more you can do the same with IPs, the better?

Plus, there are lots of specific circumstances where you might want something ASAP. For example, if I identify my neighbour is a prime candidate for rushing before they get a second settlement online, I want the war support bonus as quickly as possible.

Like I've said, it's not *nothing*. Xenia is a good card that can help you, and yeah, obviously getting those yields earlier is helpful... but is it as big a deal as it's been made out to be? No, I don't think so. Is the 1 extra culture I get from suzeraining a cultural city state a dozen turns earlier going to match the culture I'd get from playing as Aksum and slotting a card like Port of Nations in that same spot instead? Probably not. Is the 1 extra science I get as Greece in that same situation going to match the science I'd get from Maya's Pet Kot being slotted in that same spot? Again, no (and I don't even think that one's close). I think I could even argue I'd get more science out of early gold policies like Shell-Tempered Pottery or Gaulos than I would from having to keep Xenia slotted early on (which you probably have to do since you might have more policy slots than extra policies early on, and because you if you might not have enough chances early on to switch Xenia in or out at will). If you want extra early yields there are plenty of more appealing and easier to access options out there.

My point here is that there is an opportunity cost to using Xenia as well - in order to keep that 50% discount in place, you're sacrificing another policy and other bonuses. Viewed in a vacuum it's easy to say "of course +1 science on my one library a dozen turns earlier is nice"... but you're likely giving up *something* in order to get it, and that's why I don't think Xenia is quite as good as people make it to be.

And just to stress it one more time in case anyone misunderstands me - Xenia is a good card. Really good, in fact. I just don't think it's quite at the level that some others do, and I certainly don't think it's the best tradition in the game (especially early on).

 

[Calcifer]

Xenia still works if you slot it and remove it in the same turn, right? So if you time your city state befriending with your progress on the culture tree or golden ages you don’t even need to use up the social policy slot.

 

[Renouf]

There's a couple I love that I haven't seen crop up yet. The Mayan traditions for science and culture on happiness buildings always pull their weight for me. I know it takes two slots, but coupled with the Altars you want anyway, the Monument/Villa districts you want to leave hanging around, and then Temples as you start Exploration, it's an explosive amount of science + culture. The culture from tiles ones are always good too (Aksum, Hawaii, Majapahit) but the best is the Shawnee one that gives cities +2 production on Desert, Tundra and Plains tiles. Might as well read 'free mines on 3/5 terrain types'. Worth going Shawnee just for that imo, might be my pick for best card overall. In the modern age, America's tradition that gives you influence for every slotted resource is crazy, you can drown anybody in war support. But modern ones might kick in too late to be considered the best.