Best WW2 General

[Adler17]

The Me 262 was indeed flown by the aces- but only in the squadron JV 44, General Galland´s squdron. It had few machines but many famous pilots: Galland, 105 kills, Barkhorn, 301, Lützow, 108, Steinhoff, 176. But it was very difficult to use this weapon. You had only a few seconds in which you could fire the 4 MK 108 30 mm cannons. So Lützow only achieved 2 kill before he was MIA, which made him furious.
The plane was indeed superior to ALL allied planes. It was used first as bomber (Hitler´s order), only in the last month the JG 7 and the JV 44 were equipped with the fighter version. Nevertheless this plane prevented until the very end the air supremacy of allied forces over Germany.
The design of this bird was also superior: Although not built for speeds over Mach 1 it was indeed able to achieve this speed. Nevertheless it was very dangerous to fly near Mach 1. However I read a year ago in the Spiegel magazine about a German jet fighter pilot who said he flew faster than sonic speed: A friend of him had trouble with his engines and tried to escape from a dogfight but couldn´t fly at high speed. He was a lame duck. A Mustang tried to shoot him down, when his friend saw this. He gave everything he had. The plane got difficultier to fly with every mile more. But than it made a bang and the plane was okay. He was just in range of his weapon to shoot the Mustang down before the Mustang could fire at his friend. Both landed safety. But the machine of this pilot was damaged: some parts were missing, the wings were burnt partly.
This would explain some mysterious accidents with that plane and a British note in which it is said the Me 262 is nearly not flyable in high subsonic speeds but over Mach 1 flyable again.
All in all this plane was used too late in too small numbers to influence this war. 1433 planes were cunstructed indeed but only a few hundred were flown- due to the lack of fuel. In 1944 this lack was not so dramatical- the US losses would have been very high if this plane was used from August as fighter.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

the plane was indeed superior to ALL allied planes. It was used first as bomber (Hitler´s order),

Uhmmm no. To quote from the site I posted a link to on the last page:

Despite Hitler's orders only one Me 262 was fitted with bomb racks and equipped to be a "blitz" bomber. The rest were produced as fighter / interceptors. On May 23, 1944 Hitler learned that the Me 262 was being manufactured only as a fighter. In a rage he removed Erhard Milch from head of procurement for the Luftwaffe and ordered that all existing Me 262 jets be converted to blitz bombers.

The initial delay was in the poor quality of the engines, not the type it was designed as. Further glances at the site also puts the total planes downed by the 262 at around 700, although earlier the figure was 100. It's doubtfull 1000 was achieved, even assuming this your logic is still flawed about the USAAF and RAF giving up the campaign if these losses were taken. Whatever the figure, if you give a semi-decent plane to someone with 100+ kills they will inflict heavy losses with it!

All in all this plane was used too late in too small numbers to influence this war. 1433 planes were cunstructed indeed but only a few hundred were flown- due to the lack of fuel. In 1944 this lack was not so dramatical- the US losses would have been very high if this plane was used from August as fighter.

By may 1944 there wasn't enough to send into combat, only in November were the first deliveries made. The plane simply can't have been in any great number in August because they simply didn't have enough of them by then, only 100 were sent in November! nor was any of the squadrons who became famous using it were given them for months from that date. Some were using 262's it's true, partly in training squadrons and some saw action around August, but production was not severely delayed by Hitler's order, it was delayed by engine problems and the rare materials used building said engines followed by a need to train pilots in it's use. Unlike Hitler's later thoughts, men need training before being thrown into new planes.

I still fail to see how this would have severely affected the war. Even more fuel in August would fail later in the war when the fuel was used up, Germany did not tend to be able to maintain a reserve during this stage of the war and the loss of Romania did not help one bit either. This surplus of fuel would not last, the 262s would soon be grounded en masse even had they appeared heavily in August. Allied planes may have been "inferior" but they also adapted themselves to defeat this new threat. (1/3 of all 262's in action were shot down alone by the Americans) The British Meteor had more reliable engines though slower, so take your pick as to superior there. Whatever the plus or minus points of the 262 it was an expensive luxury that the Germans would have been better off without and building more FW190s. Easier and cheaper to produce, still good enough to down the bombers in such numbers and did not require masses of time to develop only to discover it's engines were awful and expensive.

If the Germans had one major fault in production style it was their tendency to diversify into vast numbers of new and expensive designs at times when using one or two tried, tested and proven designs would do them just as well. The 262 is a prime example of this. It was the only Jet fighter of the many they tried that even came close to working decently, but it still drew valuble fuel and resources, production labour and factories from existing planes at a time when all of these were in shortage.

Whatever it's qualities it DID have failings and the allies DID find ways to engage it, however strange. It was therefore not going to change the war in any severe way.

 

[Case]

The allies actually came up with some simple, but extreamly effective, ways to combat the German jets. The key to these methods was the fact that the jet fighters could only operate from concrete runways, of which the Germans only had a limited number, and whose locations were known to the allies.

Defeating the Me-163 was really easy: the allies were quick to discover that the aircraft had a really short range. Once this range was known the bombers simply took courses which kept them out of range of the Me-163s bases.

As the Me-262 had a respectable range, this tactic couldn't be used. However, it was quickly discovered that the aircraft had to fly slow and straight for a long time as they took off and landed at their easily identifyable bases. As a result, the Allies took to keeping standing fighter patrols over all the Me-262 bases, and these patrols inflicted very significant losses on the Me-262s (and presumably kept the planes grounded for a lot of the time). The Luftwaffe ended up having to commit a large chunk of it's FW-190 fighters to escorting the Me-262s as they took off and landed, and the jets ended up being more of a tactical burden then an asset.

 

[Sarevok]

yet more things about WW2 that I didnt know before.

 

[Adler17]

Case I know that. Indeed this was the only way fot the allies to have the chance to catch them. In the air however they lost whereever a Me 262 was intercepting. Only luck shots could take down such a plane- unless the engine had a malfunction...
But if they were used earlier, the pilots for the first wing were ready in summer ´44, and if they could kill one or two of these big bomb squadrons (together with normal planes), the allies would have to stop bombing Germany loosing air superiority.
So this plane was damn good. But it was indeed not invulnerable, like any other thing.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

But if they were used earlier, the pilots for the first wing were ready in summer ´44, and if they could kill one or two of these big bomb squadrons (together with normal planes), the allies would have to stop bombing Germany loosing air superiority.

For the last time you have no idea what you are talking about here. More than once the fact that the allies DID loose large numbers of planes and/or squadrons on raids has been shown to you. Has it not sunk in yet? The allies did not run scared at heavy losses like you seem to believe, they simply were not going to give up because a few 262's appeared earlier. You are clutching at straws with no reasoning to back your claims up whatsoever. Even if they did it's to be presumed that the allies would soon after shoot them down in the methods described to you repeatedly. Even if by some miracle this failed the fuel shortage would STILL occur when rumania fell sometime later. I fail to see how with a continuous lack of fuel and the allies counter-acting their role the 262s could have continued to clear the skies of Germany, and that's assuming they could in the first place, which annecdotal evidence from other heavy losses raids shows it's infinitely unlikely.

Then you have to get round the big "IF" they had been used earlier. They almost certainly couldn't have been due to their engine troubles and other matters. No matter how far you bend the figures or ideals the 262 was severely unlikely to throw the allies off their job.

 

[Sarevok]

its true, the allies lost a great deal of planes in the strategig bombing raid operations, mostly due to the Flak and fighter interception.

 

[Adler17]

Yes the lost many planes- but mostly 20- 30 planes per attack. Rarely more, but then up to 120 planes. Only 2 or 3 times this happened. And yes their losses could be compensated- but just to that degree. If loosing 500 to 1000 planes once or twice the whole strategy would become too expensive, not in material losses but in human losses. A B 17 or B 24 had a crew of 10. So loosing a few hundred planes per attack, even the US couldn´t cpmpensate that. So loosing one or two of these raids in such a way, the strategig bombing offensive would have stopped; also the way to Germany would now be much longer and more expensive. And in these days the fuel situation was not so critical. Even the loss of the Rumanian oil fields would not be so dramatically since the refineries could work with coal (I know this was much more expensive, but...). And if the air offensive would have to be stopped the German air fields were also secure giving the allies no possibility to catch the jet planes.
This WAS possible so the use of Me 262 fighters, also with their problematic engines, in 1944 would have been critical for the allied bombing commands.

Adler

 

[Sarevok]

its all a what-if situation. It is one that continues to amaze me that so many things could have changed had some small actions occured.

 

[Adler17]

The fate of empires can be changed by very small things: A stupid general in a critical position, weather, bravery or luck. Thats´why even small changes can have dramatic influences. Military commanders are calling this the Hinge factor.

Adler

 

[Sarevok]

well, it is indeed a very true thing.

 

[Singularity]

I would say Rommel. His effort in Africa is still textbook material at strategy classes around the world. And the Italians under his command performed like Scipios Africanus's centurions.

 

[Michael York]

OOO, I like this thread. I recall reading in Albert Speer's memoirs of the SAM's existence in 1942, but never anything else. I find it interesting that they did finally decide to use them.

Since there are Admirals in the poll, I voted other. Even before I learned the name Cunningham, I was just amazed at what he did. I took this poll as a commanders poll, so I had to vote for Cunningham (other).

I like the debate as to whether a 1945 western alliance could have succeeded. I do not doubt that it could have been possible.
I have heard of stranger ideas. I don't feel like digging up the citations to argue it, but I do not believe that Hitler ever really wanted to invade Britain; I think he wanted them neutral or as allies.

I read in a book on MI-6 that most of the personel viewed WWII as an annoying diversion from the real enemy, the Soviet Union (at least by those that weren't double agents: Philby, etc..)

 

[Ozz]

None of the above headquarters Premadonnas. Any of them wounded in front-line combat?

The New Zealand ex-dentist General Freyberg. whenever the
situation was really really bad they'd drop him in.

There's more to being a general than shovin' flags around a map.

 

[Patroklos]

A very large number of German and Soviet Generals were wounded and killed in combat, to include full generals.

Only the Western Allies had the habit of keeping their generals behind the lines, with veryfew exceptions (Patton isn't one of them).

 

[privatehudson]

If I remember correctly, Montgomery was seriously wounded as a junior officer in WWI. The others I don't know about. And frankly, by WWII generalship had progressed from the stage where leading attacks in person and getting suicidally brave were the yardsticks of a fine general.

 

[Adler17]

Michael, Hitler hoped until the very end the British would switch sides. When getting an order once a young soldier asked him whether the war is lost. He answered yes, if the British wouldn´t see the USSR were the real enemy. But he said then, soon they would see that. He phantasized. But this was not the first time...
I also doubt Hitler would have invaded Britain, but he was unpredictable. If the Germans won the BoB in 1940 it would have been very close for the British...
Ozz, i think Rommel was injured. Many German generals like Rommel and Guderian were also at the first line. This was risky too.

Adler

 

[pkmink]

Polish generals like Maczek, Sosabowski, Anders or admirals like Unrug (WW1 Kriegsmarine Submarine officer, later chief of the Polish fleet) were also always at the front line, battle hardened from WW1, the 1919-1920 Polish-Soviet War, 1939 September campaign and so on.

 

[privatehudson]

Even winning the BOB would not as you say Addler garuntee invasion, though at risk from the lack of air superiority it's hard to imagine the RN simply allowing such a thing to happen when they could intervene decisively (though loose many a ship to air power).

 

[Michael York]

I don't recall, but did the Kreigsmarine or the Wermacht have the sort of equipment necessary for an invasion?

I don't believe that Hitler would have proceeded with Operation Sea Lion had the RAF lost the BoB regardless.

I suppose Churchill, with his weird fixation upon battleship sacrifice, would have order the remaining R Class BBs to be beached at the logical invasion points.

I think I better stop though, I'm drifting too far off topic.

Its interesting to have people educated in such a variety of the participating nations discuss this subject, and in a civilized way too.