Beta Gauntlet IV

[fluffyflyingpig]

1140, Mansa, 5 AIs. Wonder if the Paper slingshot works with non Phi leaders, anyone want to try? I played it safe with Philosophy. AI still won't trade as much as they should, anyone got the AI leader flavors in a nice table? I need more AIs and a better variety of AI leader flavors.

Interesting Bill, I had the same worker generation scheme as you, except I start the settler in the second city after one worker. I ended with 8 workers, prolly 1-2 less than optimal. If you don't mind me asking, how many cities are you founding and when do you found them?

 

[Big_Ben]

Yes, it will work with non-philo leaders. I was doing it with Victoria in the beginning. I haven't been beaten to any wonders playing on normal speed. The AIs are really iffy about trading techs in this guantlet. I get all the improvement techs as soon as I get alphabet and then I research mathematics (going to change metallurgy next time). I usually hold out for iron working for a trade and usually trade for calendar and currency. The only other techs I get from them are not necessary ones. I mostly trade for cash.

I play as lizzie with asoka, cyrus, frederick, hatty, and mansa all the time. I have added catherine, victoria, washington, and peter in various combinations. Once you get to have more than 7 opponents some borders will get crowded and they won't like each other. 7 or less and they are pretty peace loving.

I want to add Ghandi to see if he will trade more but he is the only person that stands a chance of beating me to the wonders. I hate wasting a game to get 1-2 turns away and lose a couple of them. We will see though.

 

[Big_Ben]

I think 9-10 opponents will be the limit. I just tried a game with 15 opponents, which was pretty nice, I got a fair amount of tech I don't normally get and a TON of cash from trading. But it was extremely cramped. You start to notice border tensions causing problems with 8 opponents and at 15 it is crazy. Only one war the entire time but there were a lot of tensions. I went through 8 UN votes for victory and couldn't win so I gave up. It wasn't that they were voting against me, it was just everyone was abstaining.

 

[MaskedFrog]

My first attempt using Quin was at 1560. My biggest problem was it took like 4 or 5 votes to get elected. I forgot to spread free religion and that killed me. Once everyone adopted free religion I was in good shape.

I also made some mistakes in my tech path and I did not farm enough GPs. I only got like 3 GPs the whole game. My other mistake was putting Stonehenge and the Oracle in the same city as the Pyramids. A good learning experience though.

I am going to try Quin again so I do not have to worry about having the right resource. I know I can shave alot of time by getting a better starting position as well as remembering to start a GP farm early.

 

[Big_Ben]

You shouldn't have to spread free religion, I don't even convert to it. That is 1 extra turn that you don't need at all. Are you giving away your techs? If you are giving away all of your techs (or trading them for cash) the opponents should be +8 or more in your favor. I myself never adopt a state religion so I don't have any religious problems at all but it shouldn't matter if you are a diff religion at all. Once I hit physics I start gifting every tech I have to the AI. By the time the votes roll around they are in love with you.

I don't make great people farms either. You need cash, not lots of great people. I only make cottage cities. For an entire game I try and generate GP in this order:

great prophet (theology)
2 x great engineer (save for UN)
great artist (mass media)
great scientist (electricity)
great scientist from phsyics (electricity)
great artist (mass media) if I have time

From the time I hit scientific method until mass media I can turn out 4-5 great people. There isn't a need for great people farms. All cities are cottages only (plus resources). Here is the way I build wonders and what I do with them:

Stonehenge: if I have extra trees around the capital after settler rushing i build it in the capital, if not I build it in city 2. This should generate 1 great prophet to use for theology.

Pyramids: If there is stone I build it in the stone city. If not, in a tree heavy area. In the same city I will build a forge and the Hanging Gardens. Once you build the forge, make sure you have an engineer specialist forced. This will let you generate 2 GE before you get to scientific method.

Parthenon: In the capital if it has decent production and stonehenge is not there, if not I chop it in city 4 or 5. Don't build any temples in this city (don't want accidental priests) and try and build this in the city with the most cottage areas so the computer doesn't make scientists because of lack of spots to put workers. Once I get my second GE I force as many artists as this city will handle (I don't mean when food is stagnant, I mean as many as you can and make sure you change to stagnant before you run out) This will generate 1 artist for sure, two if you are lucky.

Oracle: build in a seperate city. try not to build a temple here. You don't want this city generating any great people.

After I generate my artist I will go to the city with the most food resources and no wonders. I then force as many scientist as possible. This should be good for 1-2 scientists.

I get the free scientist from physics always. If I can get the comp to trade either literature or drama before they get to music, I will try and grab the free artist as well. I don't research drama or literature myself though unless I need ot for mass media with artist.

 

[solidwoody]

AI still won't trade as much as they should, anyone got the AI leader flavors in a nice table? I need more AIs and a better variety of AI leader flavors.

I dont know how to include the table in my post but I will upload the file LeaderHeadInfo and I will also upload TechInfo.

Hope this information helps.

PS. If I do this wrong I can also E-mail them.

 

[BlueRenner]

I build on average about 12 cities, and as soon as humanly possible.

I think the majority of the posters on the board are looking at the "number of cities" problem in a fundimentally incorrect manner. You should not be looking at this in terms of a hard city-target. Cities, by and large, pay for themselves with ease. The really important factor here is how long it takes a city to become productive, versus how much time is left in the game.

In my games I spew out settlers as fast as possible with no regard for my science slider, until about 500BC, which is the point I've determined to be the cutoff for usefulness. I build like mad until that date, then I stop.

Yes, I'm still playing Catherine. You should too.

On a totally unrelated note, I'm liking how Ben is picking up on the subtle messages in my last few posts. You, sir, are a winner.

- Bill

 

[WastinTime]

1180 AD

Still no stone, but I did have gems. I like gems better than gold.
My start was strange, but very good, I think, for my starting location.
WorkBoat -> Worker -> WorkBoat -> Worker -> Worker

I'm using some pretty crazy strategy and I don't think I can take it much lower without dropping the craziness. Is anyone else getting sub-1100 besides BlueRenner? Maybe I should just be happy with 2nd place, but 1180 probably won't hold 2nd. I'd hate to give away my secrets only to find out Blue's been blowing smoke (I'm sure you're not, of course, since I see you won Gauntlet 3) But maybe he's on Epic speed or something accidently.

I'll have to try a more conventional approach and see how that goes.

good luck all

 

[nihil8r]

How are you guys teching up so fast? First, I forgot how easy the game was without barbarians, so once I remembered to take those out that kind of helped , and I'm trying to follow the suggested tech trees to get to Liberalism first. But still . . . you guys ARE playing on "normal," right?

 

[fluffyflyingpig]

I only bothered with free religion because the whole rest of the world tends to align in a single religious bloc and vote for co-religionists over me. Besides, I'm Spi, so who cares? Hmm, looks like the leader choice is down to Spi for a few turns of anarchy, Cre for a scout and free border pops, or Phi for 1-2 more GP.

In the capital if it has decent production

What is this production you speak of? My cities have pretty much 0 production and depend entirely on worker chops!

Hmm, looks like I've been taking a minimalistic approach, only founding 4 cities in the inital phase and 2 more around 1000 AD or so. Perhaps I should try more. Looking back, NOW I understand your inital post, Bill. Clever.

Thanks for the file, solid!

 

[BlueRenner]

Something very strange happened in my last game. I finished in 960AD. Yes, again.

Now, here's the reason why this is strange. I played almost identical settings to my first 960AD win, only this time I wasn't nearly so lucky in the early game. In the first win, I managed to grab four free techs from goody huts, which were:

Bronze Working
Agriculture
Pottery
Mathematics

For those of you who are unsure, this is eye-popping pants-wetting good. In the second game, I only found Animal Husbandry.. a tech that I usually trade for, and as such can be considered a non-effect on the game.

But the trouble is both games finished on the same date. This is evidence of something I have long suspected, but could never prove: that goody huts are largely irrelevant past the Classical Age. Once you hit the Industrial Age, you're producing enough beakers every turn to buy the entire Ancient Age tech set, so any initial advantage you get by popping a hut with a fortunate tech is negated by the end of the game.

Of course, this isn't proof, either. I don't believe I played significantly better in this 2nd game than in the 1st, but it is always a possibility.

However, we have a bigger problem now. As Fluffy pointed out in the previous post, the main strength of Catherine is not in the Creative trait, but in the fact she starts with a Scout, giving you many, many more huts. In a game where initial huts don't matter so much, the appeal of Catherine is largely gone.

To elaborate a little further, there appear to be four main choices for this Gauntlet:

Elizibeth: +GP scientists
Catherine: +Scout
Mansa Musa: -Anarchy
Victoria: +Population

Victoria I've already dismissed, and I now believe that Catherine isn't all she's cracked up to be (by.. ahh.. me). I'm very much not sold on the virtues of Spiritual, so I think in the next few games I'll join the pack and see what Elizibeth can do.

- Bill

 

[fluffyflyingpig]

Let's see. The combined tech value of the goody huts you poped that first time is around the 1000-1500 beakers of a single extra great person. The 1000-1500 beakers would take 1-3 extra turns to generate normally. Spi shaves off maybe 3 turns of anarchy. I think I'd rather not be forced to gamble with luck from huts.

 

[ImperatorFenris]

WTH do you mean "cities pay for themselves easily"?? Are we even playing the same GAME? If I want to found cities like mad like you guys seem to, my tech rate is going waaay down or I start hemorrhaging gold like crazy. And now we are skipping GL too?? I definately go for that pretty quickly, otherwise I can't imagine how you are teching so fast. Also, you guys obviously aren't doing much in the way of religion, so unless you are relying on the christianity shrine (it's possible I guess, but it would require getting 2 GPs, one to research the other to build) to generate money. Is there some sort of great gold exploit that I am missing? I build cottages everywhere, so its not like that's my problem. I operate at about 90-100% most of the time, except when I need more money (and can't trade for more), but I still don't get pre-1500 scores.

If, as you say, I need alot more cities, how do I pay for them????

 

[DaveMcW]

If, as you say, I need alot more cities, how do I pay for them????

They are building 2 workers for every settler - one to chop a courthouse and one to build cottages.

 

[Big_Ben]

Actually I don't build courthouses at all in this guantlet.

Imperator: You are looking at cash generation on a turn by turn basis. You have to look at the end result. I only go down to 40% when I am in the growing phase in order to keep my tech pace up but I am going to try Bill's approach and let it go lower if necessary. You have to understand that it isn't about how MANY cottages you make. It is about how many cottages are WORKED and WHEN.

Let's look at some math. I know it isn't accurate in the game, but they are round numbers and easier to work with. Lets assume that it takes 53,000 tech points to finish teching. Lets say that for the first 50 turns of a cottage it makes 2 gold. After that it is at town status and generating 8-10 gold. Lets say that each city cost 5 gold in upkeep.

If you build 5 cities by turn 40 then the upkeep is 25 gold/turn and the population will be about 3.5 of each city, meaning the income is 35 gold/turn. This allows you to keep research at 30-40%. That means you are getting 10-15 beakers/turn in research. So for turn 40-90 you will make 750 beakers in research. At that time you will be about 10 population and making 500 gold/turn for turn 90-200. That means you will make 52,250 + 750 beakers in research. So you finish around turn 200.

Now lets say you build 10 cities by turn 50. The upkeep would be 50 gold/turn and the population would be lower (spent more turns building settlers instead of growing) around 2.5 of each city giving an income of 50 gold pieces. That means for the first 50 turns you are at 0% research. So at turn 110 you have 0 research. By that time you will be around 10 pop per city making 1000 gold/turn for turn 110 onward. It will take you 53 turns to get 53,000 beakers. So by turn 163 you are finished teching.

That scenario you are running at 0% research for over half the game, but once the cities mature they "pay for themselves" in the fact that they are making a lot more than you lost by not having the money to tech in the beginning. In that case you finish 37 turns earlier.

 

[nihil8r]

What world setting is most people using for this gauntlet? Balanced?

 

[Big_Ben]

Yeah, balanced, tropical, low sea level.

 

[WastinTime]

I played a Catherine game and I thought the expanding borders were a better feature than the scout. It brings more choppable forest and resources in range faster.

Unrelated question: Are you guys chopping out/building 7 Universities and the Oxford Uni? I find that the game is almost over by the time you finish all that.

 

[Big_Ben]

I build universities but not Oxford. I usually get the last of my Unis built right before the end of my tech phase so they are pointless. I may just not worry about it and make cash or beakers.


I finished a game with Bill's strat of city spamming as fast as possible. I do like it, I got 15 by 250 BC. I think next time I will probably stop at 500 or before like he said. I had a few under developed cities in the end. I finished 1140 but should have finished before 1100. I had a couple of mistakes that cost me a couple turns. I also lost the parthenon so I didn't get enough GP like I wanted.

As for leaders, I have been playing with Lizzie and have been doing pretty well. However I am usually getting 2-3 great people between 900-1100 AD which is the advantage of Lizzie. However to break 1000 AD in finish time I don't know if philosophical helps all that much. Mansa may be ok but he would only save me 2 turns at most. I am thinking Catherine may be a decent option. I don't really care about getting techs from huts, I prefer gold. That gold will help you keep your research up for a few more turns.

I really wish either Ghandi or Asoka had a financial trait, those fast workers would be perfect for this gauntlet.

 

[nihil8r]

I simply do not understand this play style ... I've managed to get the Oracle to rush Civil Service twice now, and I'm using my Prophet from Stonehenge to rush Theology. But all of that is for naught when one of these so-called "friendly" civs declares war on my undefended or almost undefended cities.

I am cry