"Beta" Massive WW2 scenario

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

Royal Navy,
Heavy Cruisers (CA):

County classes:

Berwick
Cornwall
Cumberland
Devonshire
Dorsetshire
Kent
London
Norfolk
Shropshire
Suffolk
Sussex

= 11

Lost: 2 CA due to Japanese carrier dive-bombers.

Exeter and York

= 2

Lost: 1 CA due to Japanese Cruiser gunfire
1 CA due to Italian explosive motor boats

Note: No Heavy Cruisers were built by Britain duriing WWII.


Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[scottskingdom]

Success!!!

with some confusion though- under civ-content I have a load up called WW2,Sept1939,beta-4.1.bix. Under conquests I have : WW2,sept,1939,beta-4.1c.biq AND WW2theWorld3.8.biq. (this is from main conquests option game screen)....so I have 3 options, after following instructions (my interpretation of them anyways )

but WW2,sept,1939,beta-4.1c.biq still kicks me out to desk top, so between the two I'll definately pick 3.8- cause of them tactical bombers (hehe) and many improvements! Is city police the Gestapo SS? neat idea so armies are freed up later... hopefully this is newest version? no matter it looks fantastic!

So this game has a map scaled to around avalons 3rd reich but with divisional unit breakdown instead of corp\army units..cool...

I'd love to create\find art for individual unique units, but without a clue... guess I'll have to learn the editor sometime... need more time in day!

Will start play tommorrow but 1st I'll check back.

Hey now 10 years ago isnt that long ago...well I guess it is... and I'm old but I have played newer stratedgy games also as well as the old ones- My buddies and I would setup squad leader in a room in his basement that was 20 x20! and there was hardly any room to stand without bumping a board and causing a disaster!(along one side or a hole in the center to stand) Now it all fits in a pc- amazing!

Wish me happy Matilda hunting.....

 

[Rocoteh]

scottskingdom,

I started with strategy games 40 years ago, during
the Avalon Hill era, when 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-1
always, always on a die roll 1 would result in D elim.


Yes you are right: the scenario have the division
as basic unit. The police unit is to reflect control
since the game-engine (for some reason) does
not allow intrinsic defense.

I am very glad to hear that you are an old wargamer.
We all share memorys from the "old days"

There is an mini-scenario located at Post 344.
Should there be interest I will create a new mini-scenario
when more nations have been added.

Looking forward to more comments from you in the future.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

The Royal Navy September 1939.

Light Cruisers: (AA = Antiaircraft)

"C" classes:

Cairo (AA)
Capetown
Calcutta (AA)
Caledon (AA)
Calypso
Caradoc
Cardiff
Carlisle (AA)
Ceres
Colombo (AA)
Coventry (AA)
Curacoa (AA)
Curlen

= 13

2xCL lost due to Italian Submarines
2xCL lost due to Ju-88
2xCL lost due to Stuka
1xCL lost due to Collision

"D" classes

Danae
Dauntless
Dehli
Despatch
Diomede
Dragon
Dunedin
Durban

= 8

1xCL lost due to German Submarine
2xCL expended at Normandy

Hawkins class

Effingham
Frobisher
Hawkins
Vindictive

= 4

1xCL lost due to ran aground and wrecked

"E" class

Emerald
Enterprise

= 2

No losses

To be continued

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Meateater]

Thanks for the posts scottskingdom I hope the scenario is working for you now.

I uploaded 3.9 with the Royal navies BB's and BC's grouped and placed on the map.

Great stuff as allways Rocoteh, give me a few days and I think the grouping/fleets of the ships you listed can be found also. From what I found at the start of the war there were a few British fleets. The Med fleet, 2 home fleets one a BB's and the other BC's, and the English Channel fleet. After the war got going there were a few other fleets Z and H to name a two.

Edit: Note that this scenario is not useing the beta patches for Conquest, but is working off just Conquest and the updates that came with it. So I don't know if the scenario will work with the new beta patches for Conquest. I am waiting untill the the final patches come out to update the scenario to the lates patch. They said some time at the end of February the patches will be final.

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

I will download 3.9 and probably deliver the rest
of the CL-stats later on today.

I will also do a sum up of the "lost due to" stats.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

Royal Navy.
Light Cruisers (CL):

Leander class

Achilles
Ajax
Leander
Neptune
Orion

= 5

1xCL lost due to mines.

Arethusa class
Aurora
Galatea
Penelope

= 4

2xCL lost due German Submarines

Southhampton classes

Birmingham
Glasgow
Gloucester
Liverpool
Manchester
Newcastle
Sheffield
Southampton

= 8

2xCL lost due to Stuka
1xCL lost due to Italian MTB:s

Belfast class

Belfast
Edinburgh

=2

1xCL lost due to German Submarine

Adventure class

Adventure

= 1

No losses.

At the outbreak of WWII The Royal Navy had 47 Light Cruisers.
35 Light Cruisers were built during WWII.

Thus: 47+35 = 82xCL.

18 CL out of 47 was sunk.
10 CL out of 35 was sunk.

Thus 28 out of 82 was lost. (34%)

10xCL lost due to Submarines
10xCL lost due to Aircraft
2xCL lost due to MTB:s
2xCL lost due to Mines
2xCL lost due to Ran Aground or Collision
2xCL lost due to Expended at Normandy Invasion


Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

A general comment on The Royal Navy and the losses:

September 1939 The Royal Navy had 12 Battleships
and 3 Battlecruisers. 5 Battleships were completed
during the war.

Losses: Battleship Royal Oak sunk by Geman Submarine U-47
at Scapa Flow. 833 men dead.

Battleship Prince of Wales sunk by Japanese land-based
aircraft South China Sea 1941.

Battleship Barham sunk by German Submarine U-331
North of Sidi Barrini 1941. 861 men dead.

Battlecruiser Repulse sunk by Japanese land-based
aircraft South China Sea 1941.

Battlecruiser Hood sunk by German Battleship Bismarck
West of Iceland 1941. 1 416 men dead. Only 3 men survived.

Thus Submarines sunk 40% of the Capital ships
Aircraft sunk 40%. Battleship sunk 20%.

Comparing with Light Cruisers lost: (Not counting Ran Aground,
Collision and Expended)

Submarines sunk 42% of the Light Cruisers.
Aircraft sunk 42%
Motor-Torpedo Boats sunk 8%
Mines sunk 8% (Fractions rounded up or down)

Then the Heavy Cruisers: 13 September 1939.
Great Britain did not built Heavy Cruisers During the war.

Of the 13 Heavy Cruisers 4 was sunk

2 (50%) by Carrier-based Japanese Dive-bombers.
1 (25%) by Japanese Cruiser Gun-fire.
1 (25%) by Italian Explosive Motor Boats.

Fleet Carriers, (CV and CVL) September 1939: 7

5 was sunk.

3 (60%) by German Submarines
1 (20%) by Japanes Carrier-based Dive-bombers
1 (20%) by German Battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

During the war 17 more Fleet Carriers was built.
None of them was lost.

To the point:

I think the above stats show that the so common
"Battleships were obsolete already when WWII begun
due to aircraft and Submarines" comment is to
oversimplyfy facts:

ALL "big" ships were vulnerable to aircraft and Submarines.


Rocoteh

 

[Meateater]

I agree that the battleship had seen it better days and the war brought about the use of aircraft carriers. So yes it was the carriers that were the new main sea vessle to conduct sea combat. First demostrated by the Japanies on the attack at Pearl Harbor. Then you can see it more and more through out the war, Midway, and Corral sea. Sometimes navy ships not even seeing eachother.

Let me check a few sites to see if we can get groupings for the ships, I have one that list naval operations for BB's, and other ships.

 

[Meateater]

Light cruisers
C-classes

-Caledon (CL) 7th Cruiser Squadron, and was at Scapa Flow in August 1939
-Calypso (CL) At the outbreak of the war she was serving with the 7th Cruiser Squadron on Northern Patrol duty
-Caradoc (CL) The years between 17 October 1934 and 1939 were spent in reserve.
She was on the America and West Indies Station during 1939-42
-Cairo (CL-AA) In September of that year she was with the Channel Force
-Calcutta (CL-AA) She served with the Humber Force from September 1939
-Capetown (CL) In September 1939 she was at Gibraltar with the North Atlantic Command
-Carlisle (CL-AA) In the summer of 1939 she was converted into an AA ship, the work not
being completed until after the outbreak of war
-Colombo (CL) The years 1936 to 1939 were spent in reserve. She served with the llth
Cruiser squadron at the outbreak of war, based initially at Gibraltar
-Cardiff (CL) As a unit of the 12th Cruiser Squadron she served with the Northern Patrol
in 1939/40
-Ceres (CL) remained inactive until September 1939, when recommissioned for the Channel
Force
-Coverntry (CL-AA) In September 1939 Coventry was in the Mediterranean again
-Curacoa (CL-AA) until taken in hand in the summer of 1939 for conversion into an AA
cruiser. This refit was completed in April 1940.
-Curlew (CL-AA) conversions to an AA cruiser in 1935. She was in dockyard hands at the
outbreak of war in 1939, then served with the Home Fleet
-Effingham (CL) She was a unit of the 12th Cruiser Squadron at the outbreak of war,
and served in the Northern Patrol
-Frobisher (CL) She reduced to reserve in November 1930 until conversion to a cadets
training ship in 1932, in which capacity she served until 1939
-Hawkins (CL) Hawkins became a cadets training ship in September 1938. She was rearming
until January 1940
-Vindictive (CL) Demilitarised to use as training ship in 1936

 

[Meateater]

The Royal Navy September 1939.

Light Cruisers: (AA = Antiaircraft)

"C" classes: - Listed in post #390

Cairo (AA)
Capetown
Calcutta (AA)
Caledon (AA)
Calypso
Caradoc
Cardiff
Carlisle (AA)
Ceres
Colombo (AA)
Coventry (AA)
Curacoa (AA)
Curlen

= 13

2xCL lost due to Italian Submarines
2xCL lost due to Ju-88
2xCL lost due to Stuka
1xCL lost due to Collision

"D" classes

-Danae - Part of the 9th Cruiser Squadron at the outbreak of war in September 1939
-Dauntless - She paid off to reserve again and remained out of service until 1939, when she recommissioned for the 9th Cruiser Squadron in the South Atlantic Command, where she was in September
-Dehli - Recommissioned for the 12th Cruiser Squadron at the outbreak of war, she served with the Home Fleet on Northern Patrol duties
-Despatch - She joined the 8th Cruiser Squadron on the America and West Indies Station on the outbreak of war.
-Diomede - September 1939 found her with the 7th Cruiser Squadron in the Home Fleet on Northern Patrol duties
-Dragon - In September 1939 the ship was with the 7th Cruiser Squadron in the Home Fleet
-Dunedin - In August 1939 the ship was with the 12th Cruiser Squadron in the Home Fleet and, in September, with the llth Cruiser Squadron in the Orkneys and Shetlands Command
-Durban - Durban joined the 9th Cruiser Squadron in the South Atlantic Command in September 1939

= 8

1xCL lost due to German Submarine
2xCL expended at Normandy

Hawkins class - listed in post #390

Effingham
Frobisher
Hawkins
Vindictive

= 4

1xCL lost due to ran aground and wrecked

"E" class

-Emerald - Recommissioned for war service, she joined the 12th Cruiser Squadron on Northern Patrol duties in September 1939
-Enterprise - Enterprise was also employed on Atlantic escort duties, with the Halifax Escort Force during 1939/40

= 2

No losses

Leander class

-Achilles - In November 1939 she formed part of Force G operating between the Falklands and the Plate estuary
-Ajax - but formed part of the South America Division in September 1939. Operating off the River Plate,
-Leander - but in April 1937 was loaned to New Zealand. As a unit of the New Zealand Division she was deployed on trade protection duties in the South-west Pacific in September 1939, her main task being the escorting of ANZAC troop convoys from Australia and New Zealand across the Indian Ocean to the Red Sea and Suez.
-Neptune - in September 1939 formed the 6th Cruiser Squadron in the South Atlantic
-Orion - but in 1937 was transferred to the 8th Cmiser Squadron on the America and West Indies Station, where she served until transferred to the Mediterranean in 1940

= 5

1xCL lost due to mines.

Arethusa class
-Arethusa - Arethusa went to the 3rd Cruiser Squadron in the Mediterranean on completion, and was still there at the beginning of the war.
-Aurora - In September 1939 she was with the 2nd Cruiser Squadron, escorting convoys to Scandinavia and engaged on the hunt for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau
-Galatea - Galatea joined the Mediterranean Fleet on commissioning and acted as flagship, Rear Admiral (Destroyers). After the outbreak of war she was ordered home
-Penelope - Penelope also went to the 3rd Cruiser Squadron in the Mediterranean on completion, but was recalled in 1940

= 4

2xCL lost due German Submarines

Southhampton classes

-Birmingham - Birmingham served on the China Station from completion, with the 5th Cruiser Squadron. After war was declared she went to Malta to refit and then joined the Home Fleet
-Glasgow - Glasgow was with the 2nd Cruiser Squadron in the Home Fleet at the outbreak of war, and served on the Northern Patrol
-Gloucester - Gloucester was serving as flagship of the 4th Cruiser Squadron in the East Indies at the outbreak of war in 1939
-Liverpool - Liverpool was a member of the 4th Cruiser Squadron in the East Indies in 1939, but in mid-November was transferred to the 5th Cruiser Squadron in the China Sea
-Manchester - Manchester was serving in the East Indies with the 4th Cruiser Squadron at the outbreak of war, but was ordered home and arrived back Britain on 25 November 1939
-Newcastle - Newcastle joined the 2nd Cruiser Squadron on completion, and was under refit on the outbreak of war
-Sheffield - Sheffield was with the 18th Cruiser Squadron in September 1939, and carried out patrols in the Denmark Straits until April 1940
-Southampton - Southampton served as flagship of the 2nd Cruiser Squadron with the Home Fleet.

= 8

2xCL lost due to Stuka
1xCL lost due to Italian MTB:s

Belfast class

-Belfast - Belfast joined the 18th Cruiser Squadron with the Home Fleet, but on 21 November 1939 she detonated a mine laid in the Firth of Forth by U21, which broke her back and caused extensive damage
-Edinburgh - Edinburgh formed part of the 18th Cruiser Squadron at Scapa Flow in September 1939, but on 1 October she was transferred to the 2nd Cruiser Squadron in the Humber

=2

1xCL lost due to German Submarine

Adventure class

Adventure - Minelayer

= 1

No losses.

At the outbreak of WWII The Royal Navy had 47 Light Cruisers.
35 Light Cruisers were built during WWII.

Thus: 47+35 = 82xCL.

18 CL out of 47 was sunk.
10 CL out of 35 was sunk.

Thus 28 out of 82 was lost. (34%)

10xCL lost due to Submarines
10xCL lost due to Aircraft
2xCL lost due to MTB:s
2xCL lost due to Mines
2xCL lost due to Ran Aground or Collision
2xCL lost due to Expended at Normandy Invasion


-----------------
Here is the rest from your list Rocoteh

 

[Meateater]

Royal Navy,
Heavy Cruisers (CA):

County classes:

-Berwick - From September that year she served on Ocean convoy escort duties, then formed part of Force F (with York) when hunting groups were formed to find the German raiders. She did not make contact with any raider,
-Cornwall - She went out to China again in 1939 as part of the 5th Cruiser Squadron, from where she moved to the Indian Ocean as part of Force I at Ceylon for antiraider patrols, spending the remainder of the year in the hunt for Admiral Graf Spee
-Cumberland - At the outbreak of war the ship was in the South America division. During the hunt for Admiral Graf Spee she formed part of Force G off the west coast of South America in October 1939
-Devonshire - Devonshire, like all of her sisters, joined the 1st Cruiser Squadron in the Mediterranean Fleet after completion, remaining there until 1939, except for a commission on the China Station between 1932 and 1933. After the outbreak of war she joined the Home Fleet,
-Dorsetshire - After refit in 1936/37 the ship joined the 5th Cruiser Squadron on the China Station, and was there at the outbreak of war
-Kent - Kent served on the China Station with the 5th Cruiser Squadron from completion until 1939, her reconstruction being carried out in 1937/38. Her initial wartime duties were anti-raider patrols in the East Indies
-London - London served with the 1st Cruiser Squadron until taken in hand for reconstruction in March 1939. On completion of this, in February 1941, she was deployed to the Atlantic in the hunt for Bismarck
-Norfolk - being still in dockyard hands when war was declared. On 6 September she joined the 18th Cruiser Squadron with the Home Fleet in the Denmark Straits
-Shropshire - Shropshire served with the Mediterranean Fleet until the outbreak of war
-Suffolk - Suffolk, like her sisters, served on the China Station, save for reconstruction, until the outbreak of the war. She came home in 1939 and then patrolled the Denmark Straits in October 1939
-Sussex - In 1939 she formed Group H with Shropshire in the South Atlantic during the search for Admiral Graf Spee

= 11

Lost: 2 CA due to Japanese carrier dive-bombers.

-Exeter- At the beginning of the war she was in the South American Division, and formed Force G with Cumberland off the east coast of that continent in October 1939, when raider hunting groups were formed
-York- However, she was on the America Station in September 1939. Her initial duties involved providing the ocean escort to the first Atlantic convoys from Halifax, Nova Scotia

= 2

Lost: 1 CA due to Japanese Cruiser gunfire
1 CA due to Italian explosive motor boats

Note: No Heavy Cruisers were built by Britain duriing WWII.


--------------------

I hope to get an update up in the next day or so with the CA's and CL's in it. Thanks again Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

Very interesting research you have made.

As I said earlier: When we have finished research
on The Royal Navy I hope we can find some really
good sources on The Royal Airforce.
Most of the sources I have seen so far is contradicting.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Meateater]

4.0 is up with the ships listed above. The U.S. had some AA ships also, so I will add them in the next update ( there were 6 I think )

I will get back to you on the Royal air arm after I check a few sources.

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

That sounds great.

I will see if can create a new mini-scenario with the
new OBB:s, some time from now.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Meateater]

Just after checking a few site I got this on the British aircraft strength. Let me know how this compares to your stats.

RAF- (Airforce)
920 bombers, 350 of them are long range bombers
600 fighters

Fleet air arm (navy)
232 aircraft, mostly older models

British totals=1,752

This is what we have for the others
U.S.= 2,585
Germany=3,258
France=1,250
Italy just over 2,000

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

These stats are on the same line
that I have seen.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

The Royal Navy. Destroyers September 1939.

"R" and "S" classes

Sabre
Saladin
Sardonyx
Scimitar
Scout
Shikari
Skate
Stronghold
Sturdy
Tenedos
Thanet
Thracian

= 12 ships

2xDD lost due to gunfire from Japanese cruisers and destroyers.
2xDD lost due to ran aground
1xDD lost due to carrier-based Japanese bombers

To be continued

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Meateater,

The Royal Navy. Destroyers continued.

"V" and "W" classes

Valentine, Valorous, Vanessa, Vanity, Vanoc, Vanquisher,
Vansittart, Vega,Villox

Venetia, Venomous, Verdun, Verity, Versatile, Vesper,
Veteran, Viceroy, Vidette, Vimiera,

Vimy, Viscount, Vivacious, Vivien, Volunteer, Vortigern,
Wakeful, Walker, Walpole, Wanderer,

Warwick, Watchman,Wessex, Westscott, Westminster,
Whirlwind, Whitehall, Whitley, Whitshed, Wild Swan,

Winchelsea, Winchester, Windsor, Wishart, Witch,
Witherington, Wivern, Wolfhound, Wolsey, Wolwerine,

Woolston, Worcester, Wren, Wrestler, Wryneck,

= 54 ships

6xDD lost due to German bombers
4xDD lost due to mines
3xDD lost due to German Submarines
2xDD lost due to German E-Boats

To be continued.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

 

[Meateater]

4.1 is up and got them of the DD's listed above added, most were based at home with a few in the far east.

Here are some stats on a few aircraft for the RAF and RAA


Fighters


Gladiator (F)
First Flight:
Prototype: March 10, 1936
Gladiator Mk. I: June 1936
Sea Gladiator: 1938

RAF #480
Sea Gladiators #60


Hawker Hurricane (F)
First Flight:
Prototype: November 6, 1935
Production Mk. I October 12, 1937
Production Mk. II June 11, 1940
Canadian Mk. X January 1940
Service Delivery: February 1936
#12,780
September, 1939, just short of 500 Hurricanes had been delivered

Spitfire (F)
First Flight:
Prototype: March 5, 1936
Production Mk. I July 1938
Service Delivery: February 1936
Spitfires: 20,334
Seafire: 2,556


---------------------------
Bombers


Armstrong Whitworth Whitley
Service Delivery: Mk. I: January 1937
Service Delivery: Mk. V: August 1939
#1,737


Fairey Battle
Production Mk. I: June 1937
#2,419
Did not replace Swordfish


Fairey swordfish
Production Mk. I December 1935
Service Delivery: February 1936

#2,391


Handley Page Hampdens
Production Hampden I: May 1938
Production Hereford I: December 1939
Service Delivery: 1939
#1,430 Hampdens (Handley Page 500, English Electric 770, Canadian Associated Aircraft 150)


Vickers-Armstrong Wellington
Production Mk. I: December 23, 1937
Service Delivery: Mk. I: October 1938
#11,461


Blenheim
Service Delivery: 1937
#1415


Blackburn Skua
1938
October 1938 and March 1940 the 190 aircraft were delivered