Better AI experience

[mynystry]

Hi!

Well, i just gave up my second game trying the better AI... This is what happened:

In the first game pangea/standard/noble/10civs playing with the celts I had Alex for neighbour, and as he had copper and phalanax i decided to take it easy with him and convert him to my religion... everything seemed to be fine when he attacked me (instead of chinese that were also beside him with another religion) anyway i was hold to the attack when from nowhere appeared shaka and declared war to me for apparently no reason. He was on the other side of the world, so i didn't give importance. Suddendly a huge army of impis appeared and i was defending on two fronts when the game crashed. As the game was already frustrating because of the extra aggresive reaction of the AI I didn't bother to continue and better started a new one.

Again with brennus/continents/standard/noble/10civs I got in an island with the Malinese. After couple of millenia i conquered them and then I discovered another continent where the romans and india lived as pagans, so i converted to my religion. Then the romans (which were the second most powerful after me) got in war with hannibal (+vassal alex) and ragnar (+vassal monty). Their war was very long so i developed in tech, and i had already nukes when they were fighting with horses... I was about to get the spaceship when the indians got in trouble with ragnar and asked me for protection... to make the game more interesting i accepted and i was shaking viking ground when i got this two messages:

Assert Failed

File: .\CvSelectionGroupAI.cpp
Line: 178
Expression: false
Message:

Assert Failed

File: .\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 1897
Expression: eTechNum > -1
Message:


I got some earlier in the game and just hit "ignore" and then i could continue the game... but after the second one the firewall would always alert me about c:\WINDOWS\system32\dwwin.exe trying to launch, and whatever i let it or stop it the game would crash

it sucks 'cause i was just some turns away from victory... anyway it didn't matter so much 'cause i was just too strong (3000 points above the next civ)so the victory was clear.


So I have this two experiences: The first too difficult, the second too easy... And they were both in noble difficulty.

And both games crashed

Well, anyway I don't want to seem ungrateful, it was nice to try the Better AI, I hope sometime this can be more stable, thanks for trying to improve this game, which since civ1 has always been my favorite.

greetings!

 

[Arlborn]

When this crashes happen, you should put the messages in the bug report thread! Then you are helping the team to improve the mod and make it more stable

EDITED: Ah you already did, great

 

[Uncle_Joe]

So I have this two experiences: The first too difficult, the second too easy... And they were both in noble difficulty.

Honestly, I tend to agree with the experience. I've had games where the AIs just tear each other apart and I cruise to an easy win (although often after I kill off my nearest AI). I've also had the opposite where *I* am the one they are trying to tear apart and instead of me, someone else cruises to victory.

I think part of it is that the AIs are now much more 'even' in fighting. So early on, attacks tend to results in extermination (which can give some AIs a big head start). Later, the AIs are defending better and attacks usually result in expensive stalemates or mutual destruction of large armies (as well as occasional city swapping which is also devastating).

My dimestore advice on how to 'fix' it at this point would be to have the AIs build a little more military early on and quite a bit less later on. So in the Classical Age it would be more costly to take out a neighbor, but in the Renaissance/Industrial+ the wars wouldn't be quite to catastrophic to whomever participates in them.

 

[mynystry]

Actually I like the idea that the AI make better strategies and are more difficult t defeat in the battlefield... Maybe one problem is that wars that last for thousand years make the civilizations involved to really lose any chance of victory. The AI should also consider making peace more easily. It should realise easier when a war become senseless.

In the first game i wanted to make peace with Alex many times but he refused and wanted one of my cities, as i didn't give it up the war continued for hundres of years. And the role of shaka was like if his civ was there specially to destroy mine, the only thing he did in the first two thousand years was to build impis so send them to the other side of the map (standard size) to destroy my cities. He even didn't want to make any deal.

On the second game the fight between all of those that could have competed with me left them without any chance. And after one thousand years war they even didn't capture an enemy city... I don't know if the AI cities have also war weariness, and if so, how it can manage to go through such long wars.

 

[Mannu]

Maybe one of the Better AI programmers can confirm, but I thought there was some discussion already about the very long wars and whether or not it was an AI problem to be fixed.

Keep in mind that this is still technically a mod in Beta. Maybe give it a try again when version 1.0 is released.

 

[Quagga]

My memory is that originally the AIs would make peace after something like 30 turns. This gives a big advantage to the human player, who knows this limit and also doesn't abide by it him/herself. Better AI removed this limit.

My experience with the 07-01-30 build is to take the words of the Hitchhiker's Guide: Don't Panic! For example, in the game I'm playing currently, China came at me with the hugest stack of Cannons, Grenadiers and Cavalry I had ever seen. I lost Paris (a captured city) to them twice before finally obliterating the attacking stack. But upon first seeing the stack, I was ready to give up. Fortunately, the AI is still inept at using the weapons that it is building, especially once it successfully captures a city.

So, don't panic and just come back at them. Once that initial stack is destroyed, the AI probably will send units only in dribs and drabs. Easy to deal with.

 

[Mannu]

Ah yes, now I remember. A side effect of that was that the AI now sometimes continues a war past when it has anything possible to gain from it...

 

[Iustus]

Hi!

Well, i just gave up my second game trying the better AI... This is what happened:

In the first game pangea/standard/noble/10civs playing with the celts I had Alex for neighbour, and as he had copper and phalanax i decided to take it easy with him and convert him to my religion... everything seemed to be fine when he attacked me (instead of chinese that were also beside him with another religion) anyway i was hold to the attack when from nowhere appeared shaka and declared war to me for apparently no reason. He was on the other side of the world, so i didn't give importance. Suddendly a huge army of impis appeared and i was defending on two fronts when the game crashed. As the game was already frustrating because of the extra aggresive reaction of the AI I didn't bother to continue and better started a new one.

Again with brennus/continents/standard/noble/10civs I got in an island with the Malinese. After couple of millenia i conquered them and then I discovered another continent where the romans and india lived as pagans, so i converted to my religion. Then the romans (which were the second most powerful after me) got in war with hannibal (+vassal alex) and ragnar (+vassal monty). Their war was very long so i developed in tech, and i had already nukes when they were fighting with horses... I was about to get the spaceship when the indians got in trouble with ragnar and asked me for protection... to make the game more interesting i accepted and i was shaking viking ground when i got this two messages:

Assert Failed

File: .\CvSelectionGroupAI.cpp
Line: 178
Expression: false
Message:

Assert Failed

File: .\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 1897
Expression: eTechNum > -1
Message:


I got some earlier in the game and just hit "ignore" and then i could continue the game... but after the second one the firewall would always alert me about c:\WINDOWS\system32\dwwin.exe trying to launch, and whatever i let it or stop it the game would crash

it sucks 'cause i was just some turns away from victory... anyway it didn't matter so much 'cause i was just too strong (3000 points above the next civ)so the victory was clear.


So I have this two experiences: The first too difficult, the second too easy... And they were both in noble difficulty.

And both games crashed

Well, anyway I don't want to seem ungrateful, it was nice to try the Better AI, I hope sometime this can be more stable, thanks for trying to improve this game, which since civ1 has always been my favorite.

greetings!

I would encourage you to try the 1/30 build (or wait for the build tomorrow).

The 1/25 build which you were testing with had some issues, which you ran into. The 1/30 one should be a whole lot better.

-Iustus

 

[mynystry]

I would encourage you to try the 1/30 build (or wait for the build tomorrow).

The 1/25 build which you were testing with had some issues, which you ran into. The 1/30 one should be a whole lot better.

-Iustus

that's great to know!

 

[Chris Withers]

I just had about my funnest Civ4 game ever using the Feb build of Better AI. Keep up the great programming! Details below.

Settings were Monarch, Pangea with an extra civ added, Quick Speed. I was Louis XIV. Used Warlords, o/s is XP, my computer & graphic settings/specs are all around the mins.

The game/playtest proceeded pretty much normal. Overall seemed a bit tougher game at Monarch level than it would be w/o using Better AI. Seems the Better AI is worth about half a level. Oh, I did not use the file/settings that reduces the AI bonuses.

I expanded normally, did my typical wars for expansion every era. Note that wars are a bit less lucrative on Quick Speed that play at I think since my units don't get as much done per era/war as on other normal speed levels. I usually just end the game a bit after I build Taj Mahal, one of my quirky favorite wonders I build. I can tell the game is won and get bored. But not this time; I continued on and the AI civs suprised me and kept in there. Now it is 50 turns from the end and my military is starting to get much superior so I'll likely wipe everyone out so I won't bother to finish it.

The only suggestions I can make are that the AI still does not use their military as well as one would hope. It's still not too hard to destroy huge AI stacks. Also, the AI could put a better focus on winning and taking down the current winner sometimes. Once some civ gets way ahead the AI civs ought to put a greater precedence on taking down this civ (often me). Not always, else too predicable, but most of the time. So if someone starts getting way ahead in points, tech, whatever, then the other Civs should realize they have to do something about it.

Apologies if I don't reply, I rarely look at this forum. Email on the side if any other info wanted or the last game file.