Beware the ManO'War

[patinthedesert]

I started playing Civ3 again, after many years. I play Civ 3 Complete on Steam. I am not any master player like many of you here - more of a casual player. Since I don't recall some of the ins and outs of how the various civs work I have had a couple of surprises. I played a recent game I wanted to comment on. I played a standard-size map at Warlord or Regent. It was set to continents and 70% water. When I saw most of the map later it had 3 continents and a couple of mini-continents and a few islands. There were 2 other civs on my continent. On initial expansion I ran into Egypt right away. After 2 wars I had destroyed them. The other civ was the Portugese. They had a weak position and I kept peace with them. Exploring at the stage of galleys showed me that the English occupied a nearby mini-continent and there were some other lands beyond that. By the way I was playing the Ottomans.
When I reached the stage for galleons and frigates, I also had reached where I could build Sipahi (spelling?) which was knight with heavy attack. I built up a fleet of frigates and galleons, about 6 or 8 of each. And an army with Sipahi, med. infantry, a few longbows and catapults. By my 2nd turn of war I had landed my first round of trips on his land and was in the process of taking a first town. Then the ManOWars appeared. Something like 4 or 5 of them started the attack. I did not know anything about England's UU. They have a heavy attack - the attack-defense are 4/2 where a regular frigate is 2/2. So if they attacked they were winning almost all the battles. Plus they have the unique property of "enslavement". When the ManOWar wins a battle it gets awarded a new ship. NOT one of my lousy frigates, a brand new ManOWar. So I got my butt kicked. Also he seemed to have +1 range of movement. I lost all my frigates, except 1 or 2 I had in reserve. I tried to retreat the galleons but most of them went down too. Those fresh-spawned ships were great at sinking another ship on the same turn. So I guess I walked into a perfect storm for the English, But I think the ManOWar is overpowered. I had to beg for a peace treaty.
I kept the game going and when I could build ironclads, built a new fleet of those. Usually hardly worth building because they don't last long, but I was feeling a lot of pressure to expand. I had riflemen and I think it was cannon to use with the cavalry. As I started the war I also tried to position ships to have a better chance to attack his ships first. It went better than the first time but it was still very expensive. Also when I got to where I should have been able to make infantry there was no rubber resource. Strategic resources seemed to be scarce on this map. It was turning into a war of attrition on the land of the English because I was not producing enough units to take him down. I saved the game but not sure I will go back to it. When checking the scores there are 2 more civs, America and Greece. America is weak but the Greeks have a continent to themselves and they have the highest scores by a good margin.

 

[justanick]

Once you have the ability to cross oceans(in part this can be done with suicide curragh or galley) you should try to compose a complete map to get a proper understanding of the strategic situation. A (naval) invasion is usually risky. So it is best not to try it until you have build up a decent advantage. Building up a decent advantage against Man-o-Wars usually requires better technology. Waiting for combustion engine seems reasonable. The mean time can be used to conquer lsands that are easier to take and they may get you the required oil and rubber.

 

[vmxa]

Naval battles are very random, especially prior to destroyers. You can see frigates get sunk by galleys.

 

[tjs282]

Plus they have the unique property of "enslavement". When the ManOWar wins a battle it gets awarded a new ship. NOT one of my lousy frigates, a brand new ManOWar. So I got my butt kicked.

The Enslavement-mechanic results in a new unit in roughly 1/3 of all battles won, on aggregate.

So if Lizzie got a new ship for every one of yours that she sank, she was beating the odds.

Also he seemed to have +1 range of movement.

Yes, England has the "Seafaring" trait, one of the benefits of which is that their ships all get +1 on the M-value set in the Editor for that ship-type.

I lost all my frigates, except 1 or 2 I had in reserve. I tried to retreat the galleons but most of them went down too. Those fresh-spawned ships were great at sinking another ship on the same turn.

Yes, that effect does tend to snowball.

But bear in mind that if you move your Frigates (and Galleons) as a single stack, then when an enemy ship comes in to attack the topmost Frigate in your stack, one of the other ships in the stack will fire a defensive-bombardment (like e.g. Archers and Longbows can do on land, when stacked) which may knock 1 HP off the incoming attacker. And since Frigates have B=3 against the MoW's D=2, that does mean that an HP-loss is more likely than not, so the Frigate which is actually being attacked does have a slightly higher probability of surviving that attack (because it doesn't have to win as many combat-rounds to sink its attacker). Not much higher, but every little helps, right?

And then, when it's your turn to attack, you could also use your remaining ships to bombard the remaining MoWs for a potential 2-HP damage per bombardment, before you run for your nearest home-port. Even though any remaining MoWs could theoretically catch up with your Frigates (because of the +1 Seafaring-MP), the AI usually prefers to retreat badly damaged (yellow/red) units — and preferably under cover of healthy units (e.g. those enslaved low-HP MoWs).

 

[Fergei]

Naval battles are very random, especially prior to destroyers. You can see frigates get sunk by galleys.

That is kind of my experience too. I fought one naval campaign in PTW where my frigates (2/2) came out 50/50 against Man o'wars. I upgraded to far superior ironclads (4/4) and started losing 40/60. It was a sustained inconsistency that I haven't experienced with land units. Probably just a statistical blip.

 

[justanick]

And since Frigates have B=3 against the MoW's D=2,

Defensive bombardement is applied against the attack value of the attacker, in this case 4. In attack only the attack value counts.

 

[tjs282]

Defensive bombardement is applied against the attack value of the attacker, in this case 4. In attack only the attack value counts.

I'd ask whether you're sure about this, but I guess you wouldn't have posted otherwise... ?

 

[patinthedesert]

The Enslavement-mechanic results in a new unit in roughly 1/3 of all battles won, on aggregate.

So if Lizzie got a new ship for every one of yours that she sank, she was beating the odds.Yes, England has the "Seafaring" trait, one of the benefits of which is that their ships all get +1 on the M-value set in the Editor for that ship-type.Yes, that effect does tend to snowball.

But bear in mind that if you move your Frigates (and Galleons) as a single stack, then when an enemy ship comes in to attack the topmost Frigate in your stack, one of the other ships in the stack will fire a defensive-bombardment (like e.g. Archers and Longbows can do on land, when stacked) which may knock 1 HP off the incoming attacker. And since Frigates have B=3 against the MoW's D=2, that does mean that an HP-loss is more likely than not, so the Frigate which is actually being attacked does have a slightly higher probability of surviving that attack (because it doesn't have to win as many combat-rounds to sink its attacker). Not much higher, but every little helps, right?

And then, when it's your turn to attack, you could also use your remaining ships to bombard the remaining MoWs for a potential 2-HP damage per bombardment, before you run for your nearest home-port. Even though any remaining MoWs could theoretically catch up with your Frigates (because of the +1 Seafaring-MP), the AI usually prefers to retreat badly damaged (yellow/red) units — and preferably under cover of healthy units (e.g. those enslaved low-HP MoWs).

Not sure how to break up the quote to answer each part.
Enslavement. Not sure how often it happened. It seemed like more than half the time. But once I was panicking I was not counting.

+1 range - so it's from Seafaring. That makes sense. I didn't think they had time to get Magellan's at that point.

Stacking the naval units. That could be a lesson to learn. My thought was to place frigates on likely attack routes. Next time stack. I also could have saved a ship or 2 by ducking into my newly-conquered port on the English land, then making a fresh run for it on the next turn.

 

[patinthedesert]

Once you have the ability to cross oceans(in part this can be done with suicide curragh or galley) you should try to compose a complete map to get a proper understanding of the strategic situation. A (naval) invasion is usually risky. So it is best not to try it until you have build up a decent advantage. Building up a decent advantage against Man-o-Wars usually requires better technology. Waiting for combustion engine seems reasonable. The mean time can be used to conquer lsands that are easier to take and they may get you the required oil and rubber.

By the time I was mounting the invasion, I had sent a couple of roaming galleys out. I knew where the 2nd English land was and America. I had met a Greek unit and had hints for where they were from. I was ignorant about Man-o-Wars so was surprised. I thought England's UU was a longbowman (from another Civ or even a different game, like I said I was no expert). Waiting until destroyer might have been wise but it felt like I was losing ground. The only other land I could reach was a small island with room for only 3 cities and no strategic or luxury resources.

 

[md4]

I too find some oddities in naval combat that just don't occur on land. The main one being that I seem to lose 1HP on attack roughly 99% of the time, even when attacking a Galley with a Cruiser, or some similar absurd mismatch.

 

[justanick]

By the time I was mounting the invasion, I had sent a couple of roaming galleys out. I knew where the 2nd English land was and America. I had met a Greek unit and had hints for where they were from.

You can negotiate Rights of Passage and move a few explorers into those territories oversea. Once you have Astronomy you should enforce exploration so that once you have Magnetism you have a complete map(except a few ocean tiles that donnot matter) and hence a sound understanding of the world you are in.

When being on the same continent Rights of passage can be a bad idea, but with nations on different continents they tend to be a good idea.

Waiting until destroyer might have been wise but it felt like I was losing ground. The only other land I could reach was a small island with room for only 3 cities and no strategic or luxury resources.

Knowing about Man-o-Wars you could have reached Amerika and Greece. You could have taken out remaining Portugal first(that is easy), America second(still reasonable easy) and then Greece. The later might not have been easy, but you could safely reach those lands and with enough Sipahi you would stand a reasonable chance before the occurance of infantry. Sipahi are expensive, so it will take some time to build up a sizeable amount anyway.

Please be aware that the first wave of an invasion counts most. So you need to use a somewhat oversized army that will be shipped in one wave. This will require quite some galleons and a few frigates. But not so much of the later because once war would start everything would be unloaded. The enemy could only attack your ships after unloading, which is quite acceptable for you.

 

[patinthedesert]

Thanks you all for thoughts on this. I learned things the hard way on this mission. It would be a good idea to learn more about unique units for the civs that I go up against!