Beyond the Sword New Units

[Soryn Arkayn]

I'm pleased to see that many of the units from previous Civ games are returning with the BtS expansion -- although I was disappointed that they weren't included in Civ4 to begin with.

Anyway...



I'm most excited about the Mobile Artillery and SAM units, because they should have 2 Movement points instead of one, so they can keep pace with tanks and Mech Infantry. Hopefully the MA can bombard from two squares instead of only one, although since not even Battleships can do that, I doubt it. Also, I hope that the MA can bombard enemy units without attacking them directly. I suppose that t made it mad sense that Civ4's artillery units had to attack enemy units because none of them had sufficient range to bombard without placing them in harm's way; not even the Artillery, because its unit model was based on the German 88 Flak 37 gun, which was a direct-fire cannon when used in land warfare. But the Mobile Artillery is obviously a howitzer, so it should be able to bombard units without attacking them. Hopefully.

As for the Mobile SAM, the unit model is interesting. I'm not a military expert, so I don't recognize it's unit model; I wonder where it's from. Personally, I liked Civ3's mobile SAM unit model better. For some reason I loved its fortify animation in which the missile launcher moved; I don't know why, I just thought it was cool. It would be awesome if the BtS Mobile SAM's missile battery rotated. And I hope that you can clearly see its missiles flying when it fires at aircraft; more so than the SAM Infantry's animation.



I'm also excited about the Paratroopers. Admittedly, I didn't use them very much in Civ3 because they couldn't attack the same turn as they were air-dropped, which usually meant that they were slaughtered by the enemy the next turn. I hope that that's been changed in BtS, otherwise I probably won't bother using them. It only makes sense that they should be able to attack after their air-drop, because their role is to drop behind enemy lines and perform surprise attacks. If they can't attack the same turn, it's hardly a "surprise". Another cool idea would be if the simulated miss-drops, meaning that the Paratroopers don't land where they're supposed to. It have to be a random effect that might occur perhaps 20% of the time, and it would result in the Paratrooper landing in an adjacent tile than the one that they were deployed to. And if they accidentally landed on an enemy-defended tile, they'd be killed -- or perhaps they'd merely suffer a combat penalty similar to non-amphibious units attacking across water.

I've read that low-yield Tactical Nukes have returned. I just hope that they only damage and inflict fallout on a single tile, because it didn't make sense that Civ3's tactical nukes inflicted the same AoE damage as an ICBM; after all, they were supposed to be battlefield nukes. I also hope that Nuclear Subs will return and can be loaded with Tactical Nukes.



These new futuristic units, the Mechs and the Super Tank, look cool. I wonder if they'll be included in the campaign or restricted to a scenario. I wouldn't be surprised if they were added to the campaign, since the Space Race victory will require your spaceship to reach Alpha Centauri, which means that the campaign will probably go beyond the year 2050.

There's also the new unit with a mob of 8 infantry. I wonder what they're supposed to be? Perhaps they're like the futuristic infantry that the US intends on using by the 2020s. Or perhaps they represent a Special Forces unit?

Aside from the Privateer, I haven't seen or heard anything about new naval warships, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't a new modern era warship added. My guess is that it would be a "Missile Cruiser", which could bombard targets with missiles from two or more tiles away; that would be awesome.

I wonder if there will also be a more advanced Jet Fighter, sort of like an Air Superiority Fighter that might be air-to-air only.

Overall, I'm pleased and excited about all of the new units included in the Beyond the Sword expansion. I hope that Firaxis will announce a complete list of the new units as soon as they can, so we know what to expect.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

In your first screenshot ther's nothing new since the units were in a scenario.
The 3rd is more likely a BtS scenario.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

In your first screenshot ther's nothing new since the units were in a scenario.
The 3rd is more likely a BtS scenario.

How can you tell that the Mobile Artillery and SAMs were from a scenario?

I hope they're not scenario-only units. That wouldn't make much sense, since they're contemporary weapons, just like Modern Armour and Mech Infantry.

I'm not surprised that the Mechs and Super Tanks are from a scenario.

 

[marioflag]

In your first screenshot ther's nothing new since the units were in a scenario.
The 3rd is more likely a BtS scenario.

It doesn't seem to me, you can notice in the city that there are old and modern buildings, which means an epic game, adding also that Mechs and future infantry are on the box of BtS.


Among units not yet announced i would just like to see Nuclear Submarine and another modern naval unit.

 

[Jaybe]

The new Mobile SAM unit is modeled after the Patriot, which has expanded its function to anti-missile defense.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

The new Mobile SAM unit is modeled after the Patriot, which has expanded its function to anti-missile defense.

That's right, I forgot what the Patriot looked like.

Although, in reality the Patriot's anti-missile defence capabilities have been grossly exaggerated. I don't want to open a big ol' can of worms here, but if you're aware of the analysis of the Patriot's Gulf War performance record, it can hardly be considered an effective missile defence system. (Suppposedly it was improved and performed better in the Operation: Iraqi Freedom campaign.)


Anyway... if the Mobile SAM does in fact have anti-missile defence capabilities, does that mean it will be able (or at least have a chance) to shoot down nukes? Because I don't agree with that at all. And if not, what other missiles could it shoot down? Have Cruise Missiles been added back into the game? Or something akin to Civ3's Radar Artillery?

BTW, where do you get this info from?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

How can you tell that the Mobile Artillery and SAMs were from a scenario?

Mobile SAM & arty are the same models we can find in vanilla civ4 under /FiraxisGames/Sid Meier's Civilization 4/Assets/Art/Units/scenario.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

Mobile SAM & arty are the same models we can find in vanilla civ4 under /FiraxisGames/Sid Meier's Civilization 4/Assets/Art/Units/scenario.

Really? I suppose that shows that I haven't played many scenarios, then.

Still, I hope that these units are added to the campaign game, because they'd definitely be useful additions, and I can't imagine why they weren't included to begin with.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Certainly. They, now, will be added to the main game.

 

[Jaybe]

Soryn, my knowledge of the Patriot missile system is generic: from news magazines, perhaps some from StrategyPage.com.

 

[Elkad]

Although, in reality the Patriot's anti-missile defence capabilities have been grossly exaggerated. I don't want to open a big ol' can of worms here, but if you're aware of the analysis of the Patriot's Gulf War performance record, it can hardly be considered an effective missile defence system. (Suppposedly it was improved and performed better in the Operation: Iraqi Freedom campaign.)

Working from memory here (and drifting offtopic)

Original Patriots (Gulf War ~1990*). Radar was at/near the ground control station. Radar pulses were sent from there, returned to there, interpreted by the ground control computer, and then navigation/intercept data was uplinked to the missile. A rather complicated feedback loop. That meant many milliseconds of lag, resulting in lots of misses vs highspeed targets (SCUDs). The farther away from the launcher the Patriot got, the worse the lag.

Later versions used ground radar still, but the radar signals were directly recieved and interpreted by the Patriot warhead itself. The closer the Patriot got to the target (regardless of where it launched from) the more accurate its targetting data was, resulting in much better intercept rates.

*Nevermind when Desert Shield officially switched to Desert Storm (1991), the fight started long before that (and before even Desert Sheild was announced)

 

[Gangor]

I'm also excited about the Paratroopers. Admittedly, I didn't use them very much in Civ3 because they couldn't attack the same turn as they were air-dropped, which usually meant that they were slaughtered by the enemy the next turn. I hope that that's been changed in BtS, otherwise I probably won't bother using them. It only makes sense that they should be able to attack after their air-drop, because their role is to drop behind enemy lines and perform surprise attacks. If they can't attack the same turn, it's hardly a "surprise".

That's not correct. Paras were historically used to seize and hold strategic objectives (for example, a bridge, or a lightly defended fortress) to support a conventional attack from either land or sea. Perhaps the stats given to the Paratroopers was incorrect, but that doesn't mean that the role they were given was wrong.

Trying to use paratroopers alone to attack is asking to get them slaughtered - the invasion of Crete, for example.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

Working from memory here (and drifting offtopic)

Original Patriots (Gulf War ~1990*). Radar was at/near the ground control station. Radar pulses were sent from there, returned to there, interpreted by the ground control computer, and then navigation/intercept data was uplinked to the missile. A rather complicated feedback loop. That meant many milliseconds of lag, resulting in lots of misses vs highspeed targets (SCUDs). The farther away from the launcher the Patriot got, the worse the lag.

Later versions used ground radar still, but the radar signals were directly recieved and interpreted by the Patriot warhead itself. The closer the Patriot got to the target (regardless of where it launched from) the more accurate its targetting data was, resulting in much better intercept rates.

*Nevermind when Desert Shield officially switched to Desert Storm (1991), the fight started long before that (and before even Desert Sheild was announced)

I wasn't referring to the Patriot's technical problems, rather the false belief of its effectiveness in the first Gulf War. Originally the US Army claimed that the Patriot had an 80% success rate in intercepting Iraqi Scud missiles, but an independent analysis reported that it was actually less than 10%, and quite possibly 0.

Regardless, the real issue is BtS's Mobile SAM's missile defence capabilities. Firstly, is it supposed to shoot down nukes? I say, absolutely not. Second, if not nukes, what missiles is it supposed to shoot down? Will Cruise Missiles be re-added from Civ3? If there will be Cruise Missiles added in BtS, I'm not opposed to Mobile SAMs intercepting them, but they shouldn't have a high success rate. Since incoming missiles would be much harder to intercept than enemy aircraft, the Mobile SAM's missile intercept rate should be half whatever its anti-aircraft success rate is.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

That's not correct. Paras were historically used to seize and hold strategic objectives (for example, a bridge, or a lightly defended fortress) to support a conventional attack from either land or sea. Perhaps the stats given to the Paratroopers was incorrect, but that doesn't mean that the role they were given was wrong.

Trying to use paratroopers alone to attack is asking to get them slaughtered - the invasion of Crete, for example.

That's not entirely accurate. Paratroopers were used as part of the Blitzkrieg strategy of combined arms. While Armour and Dive-Bombers drove spearheads through a defender's line, Paratroopers would be dropped behind the enemy's lines to disrupt communications, cutoff supply lines, delay reinforcements, and envelope the defenders.

Also, I think that you're limiting Paras to what the Allies' airborne operations famously did on D-Day during WWII. Yes, they were air-dropped to secure objectives, like bridges and fortresses, but that's true for any military operation. Paratroopers are intended to attack the enemy when they're air-dropped into hostile territory. They're also elite units because they have to hold out until reinforcements arrive.

The problem I have with Civ3's Paratroopers was that they basically served as sacrificial lambs. You air-dropped them into enemy territory, but they couldn't attack the same turn so they were slaughtered by the enemy. Their purpose was to draw the enemy's attacks that otherwise would've befallen your invading land forces. If the Paras could attack after they're air-dropped, at least they could be used offensively.

 

[cf_nz]

These new futuristic units, the Mechs and the Super Tank, look cool. I wonder if they'll be included in the campaign or restricted to a scenario.

Not a fan of the futuristic stuff myself. I hope they're only part of a scenario. Sorry.

 

[varus]

I've always wanted civ to go into the future. Call to Power2 did it and it was wonderful.

I like a little imagination in my games. It is, after all, a game.

 

[Olleus]

If paras can only hold bridges/fortresses, then there useless. There are no bridges in Civ and there are very few strategic points that are worth holding to. Maybe if there's a wooded hill next to an enemy city and your stack is just a little to far to be able to reach it this turn. Drop a couple of paras to hold the hill so that you stack will be protected while it attacks the city in a few turns.

But how often does this happen?

Paratroopers need to drop and attack to have any uses. But even then, I don't see how it could be strong enough to actualy take a city. It might be able to pillage, but thats better done by a spy.

 

[Thedrin]

Not true, Lord Olleus. If you use up most of a stack securing an objective - leaving most of the stack badly damaged - paratroopers can drop in to provide defensive support to the damaged stack. Or, if the stack is unable to move into a position to defend the just-secured objective (like a city), paratroopers can support the stack by dropping into the objective's tile.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also as far as a City
1. Bombard city massively
2. Take city with Paratroopers
3. through newly open Borders, move City Garrison units in (either Paratroopers, Mech Inf, or an Airlifted Infantry/Marine.)

 

[Olleus]

I suppose that it would work if you had absolutely massive air power. But it wouldn't work if the city has reasonable AA defences. Guess thats kind of realistic then.