Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[BlackBetsy]

Played around with a start last night with 3 cows. Was able to build up 18 towns by 1000 bc but only 1 native lux and the AI were starting to get to Feudalism / Pikemen before I got my war machine off the ground. Part of this is because while I had 3 river cows at my capital, I only had 1 other food bonus near it. My town on a lux blew up because it was next to a volcano, so it was probably a bad tile spot (it was the only tile w/in 1 of the lux and on a river). So I'll start again.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Update: Thank you @Moonsinger, wherever you are!

Edit: LOL this was the SAME START from my other Deity game. Oh well....thank you Moonsinger anyway! At least now I'm using the 4-digit save number so I don't repeat!

Update: Well, 4 cows is worth an effort:

 

[Spoonwood]

Update: Thank you @Moonsinger, wherever you are!

View attachment 697454


Edit: LOL this was the SAME START from my other Deity game. Oh well....thank you Moonsinger anyway! At least now I'm using the 4-digit save number so I don't repeat!

Update: Well, 4 cows is worth an effort:

View attachment 697455

Are you going to do 1 turn worker pumps?

 

[BlackBetsy]

Are you going to do 1 turn worker pumps?

Possibly, if I can remember and can set them up right! You need what, 8 production, a governor that prefers production, and a 10 food surplus?

 

[Spoonwood]

You need what, 8 production, a governor that prefers production, and a 10 food surplus?

You need 10 production produces when the city grows and a 10 food surplus. 8 projected production with emphasize production can do that often. Though, I also see hills, so once in Republic 7 projected production could suffice to get up a 1 turn worker pump.

The capital here can get to that point with some work in despotism. Though, settlers might be better early, I don't know.

If there was no corruption, it would be possible to setup 2 single-turn worker pumps once in Republic. That might still be possible here with a city at CxC spacing not on one of those bonus grasslands.

Good luck! Happy growing!

 

[Bartleby]

What are the domination limits like for 70% water Pangaea maps?

I know that for 60% that the upper limit would be >2600 while <2400 would be towards the low end.

 

[BlackBetsy]

1875 for my last game. Ugh, maybe I should restart as a 60% Pangaea for scoring purposes.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Playing on the map above, have 2 native luxes, horse and iron, with another lux disconnected from me by the Germans who aggressively settled towards me. I did a pretty good job of hobbling the Chinese, and grabbed the Colossus and Statue of Zeus while razing/replacing a couple of towns. The Chinese core was split by a Babylonian town, and we eliminated the Chinese west of the Babylonian town.

We are in 270 AD, have now have a clean peace with China (can re-start war at will w/out breaking reputation), and a trade-route disconnect trade with the Babylonians. The Persians are tech leaders so tech goes from Persia to Babylon to me. Everyone else is broke and can't pay for tech (got one 10 gpt deal for a laggard tech). Wow, the Japanese are always bad at tech in every game I play.

I took Beijing (it had no wonders and by the time I took it, no additional buildings since the Chinese were backwards and didn't have Currency) and will hook up its wines shortly for a 3rd lux.

1 MGL from war with the Chinese, but it put it as a Mounted Warrior Army. I had I think 11/13 hitpoints in it and thought they wouldn't attack it so I sent it to pillage and the Chinese attacked it and killed it. Heroic Epic is on the way, hopefully the next few armies will be knights.

The Germans lead on culture, have iron and Feudalism, and I have 14 Trebs and 5 knights and am paying 40 gpt as unit upkeep. I need to build another 15-20 knights and then I'll take on the Germans, and hope to defeat them.

This map isn't great; I had to meet the Egyptians through Printing Press, I think they are on an island on their own. The Persians are next to the Germans and are pretty strong as usual. The German war is do or die for this game; if I can take the German core and raze/replace I think I've got it here. Saltpeter is on the map so I could very well be looking at Muskets in German towns and cities, which won't be fun. Beating the Germans puts me up to 5 luxes and will get me probably 30% of the map.

Am I correct that war weariness is civ based, so that a new war with the Germans doesn't trigger the WW from the Chinese war? It was bad, which is why I got peace once I knocked out the Chinese towns west of the Babylonian divide.

Edit: War Academy article on War Weariness says: "We measure war weariness with wwp (war weariness point). Each civ have one wwp number against each of the other civs" So I shouldn't get any new WW if I take on the Germans.

 

[Spoonwood]

Wow, the Japanese are always bad at tech in every game I play.

Militaristic AIs won't build infrastructure as much, I think.

The German war is do or die for this game; if I can take the German core and raze/replace I think I've got it here.

Razing and replacing ends up weaker than capturing and keeping. First off, one has to pay in turns for settlers from one's core cities initially. One also gains territory at a slower rate, which isn't as much score early. One has to grow citizens which ends up slower than crushing resistance. One has to build infrastructure anew like marketplaces. Captured cities also immediately yield one commerce and can put out settlers or workers. Especially if one has enough workers to forest and chop in a settler. Before rails, once I capture a city, I'll often leave a few units just outside of that city to recapture it.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Militaristic AIs won't build infrastructure as much, I think.



Razing and replacing ends up weaker than capturing and keeping. First off, one has to pay in turns for settlers from one's core cities initially. One also gains territory at a slower rate, which isn't as much score early. One has to grow citizens which ends up slower than crushing resistance. One has to build infrastructure anew like marketplaces. Captured cities also immediately yield one commerce and can put out settlers or workers. Especially if one has enough workers to forest and chop in a settler. Before rails, once I capture a city, I'll often leave a few units just outside of that city to recapture it.

I used to be a "capture and hold" guy but the cultural flips degrade your army quickly. I'm assuming that once they flip I'll have to kill off 1-2 musketmen (perhaps spearmen if disconnected from sources), which would necessitate leaving at least 2 if not 3 knights behind to re-take. The Germans out-culture me by I think 8 to 1, so flips are virtually assured. I've lost 2 of my own cities to flips to the Germans this game already. And culture flips during peace are a real problem.

If I'm going to war with 20 knights and 14 trebs against the Germans (with further knights re-inforcing during the war), I'll probably split into two groups of 10 and 7 and I just won't be able to leave much behind.

 

[Spoonwood]

I used to be a "capture and hold" guy but the cultural flips degrade your army quickly. I'm assuming that once they flip I'll have to kill off 1-2 musketmen (perhaps spearmen if disconnected from sources), which would necessitate leaving at least 2 if not 3 knights behind to re-take.

I guess I have a larger army when I go to war usually. But also, I think flips might be one reason why, when in doubt, I prefer to wait until later. Once rails get up, retaking flipped cities pretty much just makes for more target practice usually. Especially when I've managed to plant a city near captured cities.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I guess I have a larger army when I go to war usually. But also, I think flips might be one reason why, when in doubt, I prefer to wait until later. Once rails get up, retaking flipped cities pretty much just makes for more target practice usually. Especially when I've managed to plant a city near captured cities.

Yes BUT it depends on where the flip is. If the captured city is near your (pre-capture) borders and you have rails, obviously a small anti-flip force is warranted. My Pac-Man army from the last game was problematic for flips because with the flip I lost rail network movement deep in enemy territory. Sometimes you are 3 moves away from retaking. Heavily cultured cities flipping back may take 2 turns to recover.

Anyway, I'll be home later tonight to see if I can put together a reasonable army. Your comment scares me a little bit Spoonwood, I may up my army to 30 knights. It's going to take me probably 20 turns to get there, though, and I worry about where tech is by that point. I may upgrade my Elite Mounted Warriors rather than keeping them to get MGLs.

 

[tjs282]

If you can build a Knight-Army, it will be safe to go pillaging Germany's Iron + Horses. Then once Bismarck's good units are spent, all you'll have to face will be LBMs and Spears. Any remaining eMWs should easily be able to take out LBMs.

 

[Spoonwood]

If you can build a Knight-Army, it will be safe to go pillaging Germany's Iron + Horses. Then once Bismarck's good units are spent, all you'll have to face will be LBMs and Spears. Any remaining eMWs should easily be able to take out LBMs.

If he has Astronomy, and puts explorers onto enemy's resources, and renegotiates the peace treaty to start a war by paying gpt for a luxury which then gets canceled by pillaging out the trade route, then the explorers could pillage and disband afterwards. And the enemy wouldn't those resources for a few turns (if no resources sit below cities). I agree about elite Mounted Warriors as worth saving to try to spawn an MGL, and then getting upgraded afterwards. Even if not well positioned in the medieval era, once rails get up, they end up good enough. A unit can promote and then make another leader also.

Sometimes you are 3 moves away from retaking.

Heavily cultured cities flipping back may take 2 turns to recover.

Do as you want. But, I feel pretty sure that even with that, the free population from captured cities and free territory can outweigh replacing cities with settlers. When I've filled in gaps with settlers as soon as possible, flipped cities also don't tend to have a large cultural area, since the gap filling city takes up some cultural area. Anyways, good luck whatever you try!

 

[BlackBetsy]

I can't build a Knight Army at the start of the war - I need to get an MGL. Once I do, it's off to pillaging Berlin and its neighbors we go.

One good thing is that Germany is broke (they won't pay anything gpt and usually have 20 gold or less in their bank account), so they aren't paying to upgrade units. I assume I'll still face a lot of spears.

 

[Spoonwood]

I can't build a Knight Army at the start of the war - I need to get an MGL. Once I do, it's off to pillaging Berlin and its neighbors we go.

One good thing is that Germany is broke (they won't pay anything gpt and usually have 20 gold or less in their bank account), so they aren't paying to upgrade units. I assume I'll still face a lot of spears.

Knights vs. spears usually makes for good odds. More target practice opportunities for promotions and MGLs.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Played a few turns in the war with Germany. I didn't move my Trebs into place before the war because I wanted to get it started earlier - being aggressive rather than waiting, as I've got to be in a position to take on the tech leader (Persia) right as we hit Cavalry / cannons (we are on Banking now).

The German empire is a bit strung out east to west, with a 4/5 jungle and desert cities to the west of Berlin and then unknown number of cities to the east mixed with Persia. There were also two cities planted south and east, disconnected from the core around China (including one planted when I razed a Chinese city). I started the war by taking the two "Chinese" German cities. One only had spears and I took it with Knights / MI / MW and no Trebs. The other had Pikes and I brought 5 trebs to reduce the Pikes and took it turn 2 of the war.

The Germans don't have horses, so they move slowly. Initial counterattack was to push forward some MI and Longbowman towards my northernmost town, which I dispatched with the collected Knights, Crusaders (I built KT during my Golden Age to boost my military) and MW relatively easily. I then took an Iroquois - founded city on a hill that had flipped to the Germans because of the profound cultural difference. Over a couple of turns, the Germans took two of my jungle towns that part of my initial efforts to grab some luxes (got one, but it's cut off by the Germans). That kicked off some annoying WW, and honestly I wonder if my choice of Republic was 100% correct for *this* game. But, I'm hoping that adding 2 luxes will make this war worthwhile.

With 1 more city taken to the north, I'll have split the German empire up and taken at least one iron source. It makes sense to then send a bunch of troops west to clean up the 5 cities (3 of them former Iroquois - 2 taken from me by force, 1 by culture flip) in the jungle territory and pick up 2 luxes, and send the main force and trebs for Berlin. Hopefully, we get an MGL along the way. The Heroic Epic should help with that. I'll raze the German cities to get slaves, which I pretty desperately need to clear jungle and road/mine some areas around my outer core as my towns grow to cities.

Meanwhile, the road pillage trade with Babylon is helping quite a bit, but they are behind Persia in science, so I have to wait for them to trade for tech with Persia. Once I take on and reduce Persia, I'll have a clear tech lead, close to 40% of the territory, and should be able to just press down on the three remaining civs (a lame duck China, tech laggard Japan, and Babylon). Since I am going for Histographic I guess I can leave more than one alive. Last will be the offshore Egyptians, whose conquest will be a slog I'm sure, but maybe I'll have some Sir Pleb style fun with armies.

Unfortunately, the Japanese, Chinese, Egyptians and (before I attacked them) the Germans all were too broke every turn to do anything but pay me 10 or 15 gold for tech. So my warchest is only about 3000 gold whereas I'd like it to be more like 7-10k by now.

 

[Spoonwood]

That kicked off some annoying WW, and honestly I wonder if my choice of Republic was 100% correct for *this* game.

It's rather early turn-wise. Any war weariness now can get compensated for later with more happiness from a more effective luxury slider later. So, likely Republic still will end up better.

I'll raze the German cities to get slaves

Territory within your cultural borders and content or happy citizens increases your score. Slaves do not. And any city can make workers. If any city lies in an awkward spot for another war, it's possible to gift a city and retake it later. At the very least, consider not razing their last city.

Meanwhile, the road pillage trade with Babylon is helping quite a bit, but they are behind Persia in science, so I have to wait for them to trade for tech with Persia.

Do you have some town next to 2 luxury sources in corrupt territory that Persia does not have? When you pillage out the trade route to your capital, it's possible to see exactly what luxuries and resources an AI has via the trading table.

So my warchest is only about 3000 gold whereas I'd like it to be more like 7-10k by now.

Yea, the AIs getting banks usually helps with that. But you have more territory and content/happy citizens now than if you had waited, so there's that advantage. Good luck!

 

[BlackBetsy]

Do you have some town next to 2 luxury sources in corrupt territory that Persia does not have? When you pillage out the trade route to your capital, it's possible to see exactly what luxuries and resources an AI has via the trading table.

Yes, Persia just either doesn't have extra luxes or resources or trades them away to someone else.

It's rather early turn-wise.

Losing two cities puts you level 1 WW on its own. I think I've lost 3 workers, plus many units have been attacked and I've lost a few units. So I went pretty quickly to Level 2, I think.

Note the article on war weariness indicates that WW is broken since the AI's WW is driven by the Human's AI. So, in fact, the Germans are suffering some WW at this point as well. It'll be worse when I cut off one of their luxes in a couple of turns.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Screenshots are always nice. My inclination is to push on to Dortmund, cutting off that source of Iron (I think they may only have one), then take the 3 former Iroquois cities + New Berlin with a contingent and push east to Salzburg with the main force.