Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[CKS]

I may be talking myself into the Sumerians for 100k games, because a 60 shield temple is a lot worse than an 80 shield temple. You only need 3 dead for a temple and 2 dead for a library with the Sumerians.

The problem with Sumeria is the 160-shield cathedral. This is not easy to rush. If you are using the ToA, you now will not be rushing either the cathedral or the university. If you are not using the ToA, then the cheaper university will be nice, though. If you can rush the ToA, you could expand like crazy, research to education, and then decide whether keeping the temples or building them anew and rushing universities is the better deal.

If you aren't going to use the ToA and you are going to use Babylon (giving up the agricultural trait), you might try PTW for large and huge 100k games. Then you only need 100k to win. I've done this with some success (at least I'm no worse than with Conquests). You can't pop-rush in Feudalism, but you can get to nationalism and draft as a republic, or you can go to communism to pop-rush. (Be aware that basically every city will be totally corrupt in communism, so you will not be building anything by hand anywhere).

Yes, you definitely need as many cities as possible. If you had fewer than 200 cities, that is your problem. ICS everything, although you should give the first couple of cities a bit more room. At the end you may need to build cities to give to your opponents to avoid hitting the domination limit. Once a city has build its culture, pop-rush settlers from it (and also steal its food for other towns).

And, yes, my strategy for doing harder 20k games is to play archipelago, looking for an isolated island with water. I leave my capital empty so as to draw attackers to it in hopes of generating a leader, which sometimes happens. With an army I can invade the weakest AI and progress from there.

 

[BlackBetsy]

The problem with Sumeria is the 160-shield cathedral. This is not easy to rush. If you are using the ToA, you now will not be rushing either the cathedral or the university. If you are not using the ToA, then the cheaper university will be nice, though. If you can rush the ToA, you could expand like crazy, research to education, and then decide whether keeping the temples or building them anew and rushing universities is the better deal.

This, I think is the reason to do Babylon. Not being able to pop-rush Universities was a really big problem with the Celts. The math on the food advantage isn't there to justify swapping Colosseums for Universities once Temples are built, and it's much easier to kill Library. By God, a Cathedral is the same price as a Library for the Celts!

Libraries for 3 cpt for 1 gpt are the biggest advantage if you take Temples off the table with ToA.

If you aren't going to use the ToA and you are going to use Babylon (giving up the agricultural trait), you might try PTW for large and huge 100k games. Then you only need 100k to win.

It's interesting that the large/huge tables aren't dominated by PTW. In fact, it's also amazing that the 20k tables aren't filled with PTW for 20k games since MGLs can rush wonders and you can easily produce enough of those with enough warring to rush more than enough wonders for a fast culture victory, no? Or were MGL's statistically harder to generate in PTW?

Notably, I got C3C from GOG, so whereas I used to have Complete that allowed you to play Vanilla and PTW, I can only play Conquests now (or I only see an option to play Conquests, unless I am missing something). I thought I was getting Complete.

 

[Spoonwood]

In fact, it's also amazing that the 20k tables aren't filled with PTW for 20k games since MGLs can rush wonders and you can easily produce enough of those with enough warring to rush more than enough wonders for a fast culture victory, no? Or were MGL's statistically harder to generate in PTW?

I've believed that it's easier to generate a few quick SGLs than MGLs with enough luck. The MGL approach needs something to fight. Units also need walked out to the war front. 2 MGLs by 1000 BC has felt uncommon in Regent and Monarch 60% pangea games that I've played.

Notably, I got C3C from GOG, so whereas I used to have Complete that allowed you to play Vanilla and PTW, I can only play Conquests now (or I only see an option to play Conquests, unless I am missing something). I thought I was getting Complete.

I think you have PtW, you just haven't found it yet. (edit: nope.. I was wrong)

For my computer I go to C: Program files (x86). Then GOG Galaxy. Then Games. Then Civilization III Complete. Then, among others, there exist two folders: Conquests and civPTW. Oh dang, there's no .exe file in the PTW folder. I did a search and found this which I remember seeing before. I guess @tjs282 has access to some PtW .exe file?

 

[BlackBetsy]

The goal would be 320 cities (gulp), which through no effort produce 640 cpt through ToA. Libraries in 200 of them would then be another 600 cpt. Cathedrals in 100 would be another 300 cpt, which totals 1540 cpt. Come to think of that, it's only 900 dead Babylonians! (Plus whatever I slaughter to generate more settlers). And once you hit the equation of x sized 6 cities, it becomes more profitable to learn Education and then slaughter tons of Universities to give yourself a, say, 400 cpt boost vs. settling new cities for 2 cpt each. That probably occurs at 75-80 cities with cathedrals that are already at 6 pop.

Ok - so the thing is that you need Gunpowder to do the Cathedral massacre in any non-coastal city. So you research Mono/Feudalism/Engineering (minus whatever free tech), then Invention and Gunpowder and you can turn off research if you want (or continue to get Military Tradition for Cavalry if you need to kill off the AI). At best, there is a 12 turn gap to kill for Cathedrals.

 

[Spoonwood]

At best, there is a 12 turn gap to kill for Cathedrals.

Just imagine what the priests told the youth: "Your fathers, all of them, worked so hard for the glory of God making this stained glass that they suffered injuries. But, now they are happily with their Creator, and we get to enjoy these pretty windows while we worship the most high." The amount of gaslighting must have been off the charts. No wonder why people end up so unhappy for generations after.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Just imagine what the priests told the youth: "Your fathers, all of them, worked so hard for the glory of God making this stained glass that they suffered injuries. But, now they are happily with their Creator, and we get to enjoy these pretty windows while we worship the most high." The amount of gaslighting must have been off the charts. No wonder why people end up so unhappy for generations after.

For the same reason, pop-rushing the Pyramids would probably be more historically accurate.

 

[tjs282]

Oh dang, there's no .exe file in the PTW folder. I did a search and found this which I remember seeing before. I guess @tjs282 has access to some PtW .exe file?

Don't ask, don't tell...

 

[BlackBetsy]

I can't believe I am talking myself into a Large Chieftain 130k game after how bad I felt after the Standard Warlord 100k. It's even more miserable! 30k more culture is required! 300 cities to micromanage GAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH someone stop me.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I'm at about 170 AD in my Large Chieftain game with Babylon. I need to study some 10 AD savs to compare. I've got 65 cities with 19 settlers doing a long walk to their intended targets. We got an SGL with Writing, and built the Pyramids in 2000 BC-ish. I hand built ToA, at the time I only had maybe 25 cities, including two with hand-built temples. In general, starting with a temple and then only needing to have 3 pop for a library (bowman/library rush sequence) is very beneficial. I feel like my settler pace is good, I generally am getting 3-5 settlers a turn in my Golden Age. The Chieftain AI don't produce cities very well, and I find myself waiting outside one city or another for it to be 2 pop or get a culture expand so it won't be razed. I am going to walk a collection of Horse/MI/ Trebs over to Sumeria next (its a long walk) and see how many cities I can grab. I probably won't even bother in the direction of the great swamps where the Aztec civ is growing since there is better land east.

We are about to hit invention, which unfortunately kills the Bowman. I need to figure out my 20 shield mid-point for a 3 pop rush after Bowman go away (I am not going to get explorers). I could do a 10 shield / pikeman / library if necessary. 10 turns to get to pop 3 is about right. We are also starting to kill for Cathedrals (I think I have 5-10), but it takes 6 pop until I can get Musketman for the Longbowman/Musket/Cathedral sequence. If there is anything I am short on it's workers.

I likely am going to go for Military Tradition while I still research so I can have fast movers to grab some AI cities. When I have enough Cathedrals and have 200 cities, I'll probably research Education and start doing some University massacres.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Thinking about it, I'm pretty concerned. I am getting 11 turn walks for settlers. To get to 300 cities, I've got 220 to go. That's producing 3 settlers per city, and a settler costs 4 population (2 for the kill, 2 for the settler), and absent a food bonus on all grasslands it takes 20 turns to reach pop 5. So if all my cities produced 3 settlers, it's going to take me 60 turns minimum to produce them which puts us in the late 700's. In the meantime, I wouldn't be able to build caths in those cities (another 20 turns), much less libraries (10 turns). I really need to be settling 5 cities a turn for the next 40 turns, and the long walks are killing me. I probably will only be able to pick up 10 extra cities through war. In the meantime, I also need workers to irrigate and road to shorten the walks (I am mostly roading the paths to the main settler directions).

Edit - you can pop-rush a settler with 4 pop if you have 10 shields in the box. Starting from 1, 5 turns to 2, 5 turns to 3, 5 turns to 4, should be 15 turns per settler, so 45 turns to knock out 3 settlers per city. I just won't be able to put cities on "wealth" mode.

I need to keep track of settlers produced per turn, that's my key number. Really need like 7-8 settlers per turn over the next 30 turns, minimum. At 15 turns / 65 cities, I am only going to be getting 5 settlers / turn. I'm assuming high food cities are cancelled out by low food cities.

 

[tjs282]

Are you building Settlers in your (semi)core? Maybe try building Workers instead, use those Workers to fully irrigate the boondocks, then (join them into those boondock towns and) whip your Settlers out of the fast-growing boondocks instead?

You could also build Horses (or Knights?) in your core, which will get to your expanding borders faster (than M=1 Settlers), where they can then be (first) be used to expand your borders still further, with any redlined regs/vets getting disbanded into Settler-builds in the boondocks (for 7 or 17 shields, i.e. fewer popheads then lost to whipping), rather than sitting around -- and possibly costing you unit-maintenance (unless you're already Feudal?) while they heal.

 

[Spoonwood]

Remember, you can run a deficit as much as you want on Chieftain with no penalty.

 

[tjs282]

I had indeed forgotten that

Excuse being, I haven't played on Chieftain since my first (couple of ?) game(s?), on Vanilla, in 2009(-ish), while I was still trying to play Civ3 like it was CivDOS...

 

[BlackBetsy]

Remember, you can run a deficit as much as you want on Chieftain with no penalty.

omg you just unlocked the secrets of the universe. I will NEVER build wealth.

 

[BlackBetsy]

omg you just unlocked the secrets of the universe. I will NEVER build wealth.

(kicking myself) so many turns lost. so many turns.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I love the idea of shields from disbands of fast movers built in the core fueling settler growth. Ideally, there would be a 40 shield horse unit, but the Horsemen is only 30, which means its a 7 shield disband, meaning 3-4 horses are necessary per city, but 2 knights (17 shield disbands) are overkill. But 2 knights make a settler out of a 3 pop city. Of course, I have to research Chivalry.

 

[tjs282]

Horsemen is only 30, which means its a 7 shield disband, meaning 3-4 horses are necessary per city,

Or 1 Horse, 3 turns, and 1 whipped citizen...

Injured MedInf can also be sacrificed for 10 shields, or after Engineering, you can also Forest+Chop for 10 shields.

But 2 knights make a settler out of a 3 pop city. Of course, I have to research Chivalry

Or trade for it.

Or, if you managed to snag Ivory and SoZ, ACavs are worth 50 shields (I think?), which gets you 12 for disbanding, every 5 turns.

 

[Spoonwood]

Or trade for it.

On Chieftain? That's quite a wait.

I think Ancient Cavalry are worth 40 shields, though I don't recall what I've gotten exactly for disbanding them.

 

[BlackBetsy]

The tyranny of the math. I'm in 470 AD, turn 162. I have 126 cities built, with 30 live settlers, and 2 Sumerian cities to be mine in the next 3 turns. At 170 AD (turn 136), I had 65 cities, so I haven't quite doubled my city count yet in the 26 turns since.

My biggest problem, by far, is the map. The closest lands to my core unsettled are jungle/marsh. I could plant cities on the jungle, but they wouldn't grow to even 3 pop without worker action, and my workers are watering everything they can to create food to kill for cathedrals and, soon enough, universities. So my settlers have 15 turn walks to plant near Sumeria, which means I don't have a library for 25 turns from settler creation. I am trying to ICS as much as possible near home, but mountains, deserts and plains leave me with few good spots. I plan to turn Sumeria into an ICS/settler producing region spurred on by Knight disbands, but I just don't know if I can get enough cities there fast enough. The only good news is that a city is a free road that saves 3 worker turns.

My goal has been to beat the 1335 finish of denyd, which is turn 257, just 95 turns from now. Civ Assist II has me finishing on turn 291 (1505). So I need to reduce my finish by 35 turns in the next 95 turns. Given that you can't really speed your finish in the last 30-35 turns by more than 6 turns, I need to cut 2 turns per turn over the next 60 turns. I've done 15 turns of finish reduction in the last 6 turns (2.5 per turn), but I'm not sure how much longer I can keep that pace.

The most critical time for me will be when I turn off ToA by researching Education to build a bunch of Universities in my LC (Library Cathedral) and LCC (Library Cathedral Colosseum) cities. There will be a turn where I get a mega boost by finishing 20+ universities in a turn (Musketman / Courthouse / University kill sequence) to boost cpt by 80+. I've given up building settlers near my core, as the walk is too far, so I've been building Colosseums.

I think I would time this for 30 turns from now (turn 192) - I should have 220+ cities if I'm working hard. The last 80 or cities I plan to build will just have to hand build temples after I kill libraries first, as they are more culture efficient (10 turns on 2 grasslands gets you 3 pop, enough for a library). The University slaughter would generate 20x4x65=5,200 culture on its own in the 65 turns after I do it. Oddly, the math is that 80 or so additional cities would produce about the same amount of culture from free temples, but I should be able to add 2-5 universities per turn afterwards to more than balance out the loss of ToA.

I have real doubts about getting to 220 cities in 30 turns. It's another 62 settlers built and walked to their location. I don't doubt my ability to do 20 universities the turn after I research Education, that's easy. It's the cities, the cities that are hard.

I am finishing Statute of Zeus now that Ivory is hooked up to dump additional shields into frontier cities. It's only 60 shields over 30 turns + 4 cpt (1 university), but I'm looking for every angle. Knights Templar is also a possibility although those shields could be dumped into Knights that are disbanded.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Turns take 20-30 minutes now. 95 turns is basically next week!

Edit - I am learning that Civ Assist's 100k calculator may not take into account predictions of culture doubling in the future. I do have some built libraries that will double during the next 95 turns, so maybe I'm a tiny bit better off than I thought. Nothing I build now will double now, of course. Probably fewer than 10 cathedrals will double, and I think maybe 20 libraries, so a total of 90 cpt at maximum. My guess is that this means I'm probably 1-3 turns better off than I thought. That could mean a big difference.