Boar Riders not truly buildable?

[Warts]

I've played the Khazad for the first time and noticed something odd.

To get Chariots you need a total of 1075 beakers which breaks down as 616 Beakers (Contruction for Seige Workshop) + 268 (Masonry) + 191 (Crafting) to end up with a 5/3 unit.

The Chariot REPLACES to Boar Rider which is (as far as I can tell) a replacement for the Horseman.

So if you can build the Chariot you can NOT build the Boar Rider which is a superior unit.

The Boar Rider is listed a a 6/5 unit. It takes a total of 4041 beakers which breaks down as 2464 Beakers (Stirrups) + 616 (Trading) + 462 (Horseback Riding) + 308 (Animal Husbandry) + 191 (Agriculture). All this for a unit you will most likely never be able to build because you can build a chariot which is a weaker unit yet replaces the Horseman for which the Boar Rider is the UU for Dwarves.

Looks like a couple things need to happen. The Boar Rider needs a boost to reflect the advanced unit it is or the Chariot needs to be weakened AND they need to be be separate unit lines or reversed on what replaces what.

Should this be in the bug thread?

Warts

 

[TheJopa]

If it was up to me I'd redo the cavalry line completely, with T4 horses separating to light cavalry (horse archers) and heavy (knights). I'd remove chariots except as special units for some races (dwarves, Empyrean Ratha) and also add consistency to mounted line (currently horseman wielding a sword switches to bow, and then switches again to take either sword again or mount an elephant.

 

[Saien]

IMO: Remove the number limitation on War Elephants, but also make it unbuildable and separate from the horseman line. It can only be built by upgrading a wild elephant that was captured. This would also mean it should no longer need Ivory.

 

[Calavente]

for your issue : I don't know the new tech tree, but before it seemed balanced,
the issue seems more about horsemen than limited to boar riders.
you have to take into account the' whole tech line and all the interest of the line and not just the beaker counts.
but maybe you are right, maybe just remove the 'horsman upgrade to chariot' thing ?

for the other point :
in RL, AFAIK,there where 2 mounted lines :
-chariot,
-horsmen

and both categories can be contact or ranged, light or heavy, or sometimes mixed : ranged + contact + heavy (cataphracts), ranged + contact + light (modern cavalry, + huns/mongols cavalry), or just heavy + contact : heavy roman cavalry, knights; or ...etc
so maybe you have 12 categories, each with propers tactics, and each evoluating with new technologies : stirrups, new bows, gunpowder...Etc none of those 10 branche are better than any other one, depending on the circumstances. (so you can't really say thatheavy is better than light so it is an upgrade... etc)

so maybe it is simpler to do it as done here, and have heavy/light ranged and contact mixed, and classified by evaluated power, and have 6-10 units in 2 evolution tree instead of having 10 units, each on their own evolution tree but without upgrades..

 

[Grey Fox]

If it was up to me I'd redo the cavalry line completely, with T4 horses separating to light cavalry (horse archers) and heavy (knights). I'd remove chariots except as special units for some races (dwarves, Empyrean Ratha) and also add consistency to mounted line (currently horseman wielding a sword switches to bow, and then switches again to take either sword again or mount an elephant.

I agree. Make an early horse archer unit make that upgrade to the current Horse archer unit, and that one to a T4 version.
And then make the Horseman upgrade to a new heavy cavalry unit, that upgrades to the Knight.
The light cavalry should start with 3 Moves, and more withdrawal than the heavy. Heavy should start with 2 moves and almost no initial withdrawal.

Use Chariots as the heavy cavalry for the dwarven civs.

IMO: Remove the number limitation on War Elephants, but also make it unbuildable and separate from the horseman line. It can only be built by upgrading a wild elephant that was captured. This would also mean it should no longer need Ivory.

This could also be a good idea, would make capturing the Elephants a good option. I might keep the national limit however.

 

[onedreamer]

looks simply like a bug. Why not reporting it in the bug thread instead of starting a balance discussion about redesiging the whole cavalry line just for a simple bug ?

 

[Humakty]

In facts, chariots get the metals upgrades, so they end up with better stats than the boar riders, who come later in the tech tree ( they replace the mounted archers).
Their only advantage come from a higher withdrawal rate.
I have yet to find a use for the mounted archers vs the chariot (which I use as a rapid defensive force, to counter any army entering in my borders)

 

[Grey Fox]

I have yet to find a use for the mounted archers vs the chariot (which I use as a rapid defensive force, to counter any army entering in my borders)

I use the Horse Archers as makeshift catapults. Units that sacrifice themselves to lower the enemies HP but survives 75-85% of the time, gaining XP as they do so.

 

[jenks]

IMO: Remove the number limitation on War Elephants, but also make it unbuildable and separate from the horseman line. It can only be built by upgrading a wild elephant that was captured. This would also mean it should no longer need Ivory.

Im a fan of this. Adds a use for elephants besides sittin em in your cities, and makes more sense than building the units from ivory.

 

[3141592]

looks simply like a bug. Why not reporting it in the bug thread instead of starting a balance discussion about redesiging the whole cavalry line just for a simple bug ?

I think I had this problem in one of my games as Luchsomethingsomethingsomething.

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

I think that if the line gave to separate groups of units (standard horseman, horse archers) that the horse archers should be better but require the archery tech also. This also helps with lowering the archery lines weakness and makes more sense.