I am a little confused with the concept of borders. I thought it would work like SMAC to prevent other civ's from building a city right next to yours. The only diferance being that the borders will expand based on your culture rating. This would not affect your city radius in any way. In other words your city radius will always be 20 squares. However, your cultural influance could expand out upto I belive 6 squares. Is this right
Borders/City Radius
- Thread starter joe75
- Start date
Traquenard-fx
Freedom for my poeple
Maybe, I don't know.
I was happy to be able anwser you man
I was happy to be able anwser you man
Your culture influences how many squares away from your cities your borders are. If all of your cities have a culture less than 10, and they are not too close to each other, they will all have a little border surrounding the 9 squares centered around the city. If the cities are close, the borders will merge into one larger border. There was one screenshot of two cities with culture under 10 who had three open squares between them, and the borders actually expanded to fill the space between, creating a rectangular area 7x3. In essence, the two 3x3 areas with one square between them merged. From that same screenshot, it appears that you can only work squares inside your borders. That shot happened to be a city shot, and all squares were darkened (i.e. apparently unworkable) except for the 8 directly around the city and the three off towards the other city. In other screenshots, where culture has grown beyond 100, it seems the city is still only able to work squares in the Civ II city radius, even though the borders were pushed out one square further (100 culture pushes the borders out three spaces from the city, one further than the Civ II radius). So, the borders can limit the workable area (basically the purpose of the old city radius), but the old city radius seems to impose a maximum limit, even if the borders are bigger.
There would seem to be a restriction similar to SMAC where violating a border would potentially be considered an act of war, unless right of passage had been granted, so that would be like you described.
I can try and find the screenshot I referenced if you'd like.
There would seem to be a restriction similar to SMAC where violating a border would potentially be considered an act of war, unless right of passage had been granted, so that would be like you described.
I can try and find the screenshot I referenced if you'd like.
Peteus
All good things...
Wait a sec...I thought the culture bubble around each city depended on the culture generated by that city, not your whole civ? So you're saying a brand-new size 1 city could have a 5-radius culture bubble late in the game?
That would make the culture bubble table in the info centre make more sense, but I'm not sure I like it! I had assumed that the city's own culture would determine its bubble, but I don't have any evidence of that.
That would make the culture bubble table in the info centre make more sense, but I'm not sure I like it! I had assumed that the city's own culture would determine its bubble, but I don't have any evidence of that.
This shot clearly shows that different cities of the same civ can have different size border radius'. (one city has a border radius of 3, while the other has a radius of 2).
http://www.civfanatics.com/cgi-bin/autoimage.cgi?/civ3images/4-4-2225.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.com/cgi-bin/autoimage.cgi?/civ3images/4-4-2225.jpg
Thanks for the input. I am still unsure on the limitations of what land can be worked. It appears in the link that civzombie attached that the larger city has done irigation out as far as 3 tiles. If you can work tiles further out then traditional that would be cool. I usually have a couple of my original towns that are utilizeing every workable square. If the city radius limit has changed I could make some huge towns.
I'm not sure how what I said got misinterpreted, but apparently it did. I'm guessing its the merging comments. The borders around your cities are dependent primarily on the cities culture like I said. However, they also will merge and do odd things if other cities are nearby, and I don't think we know that algorithm yet.
I'm trying to find the screenshot I'm referring to, as I think that will make my point clearer, but I can't remember exactly where I saw it, as I've seen tons of screenshots in the past few days. Just imagine two cities with three empty squares between them. They each have a culture under 10, so their normal borders would be one square out. This would leave a single row open between them, with two seperate border areas. However, in the screenshot, the borders had shifted to include those three squares between the two cities that were not within one square of either city. Rather than having two 3x3 areas, they had merged into one 7x3 area.
I'm going to try and draw a text picture, so bear with me if it doesn't work.
This is what the culture rules would expect. C represents a city, - and | represent borders. x represents empty spaces so it's clearer.
<pre>
----- -----
|xxx|x|xxx|
|xCx|x|xCx|
|xxx|x|xxx|
----- -----
</pre>
However, this is what was shown.
<pre>
---------
|xxxxxxx|
|xCxxxCx|
|xxxxxxx|
---------
</pre>
.
I don't really see any other possible explanation for this type of observation.
More generally, the culture rule states where borders would be in the absence of any other influence, but when other of your cities are nearby, the borders can merge in ways we don't exactly understand yet, and obviously if you had two cities from different civilizations with high culture, their borders would conflict, and there have to be resolution rules for that. In the particular shot I saw, it appears possible that if a square is bordered on two sides (maybe it has to be opposite sides) by borders for the same civ, it will be claimed by that civ. Like I said, we don't know the exact rules for how borders merge or conflict yet.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that technically speaking, the culture rating of the city is not the only factor in determining borders, just the major one. There are other rules that apply. If you don't believe me, just think what happens when two civilizations build cities with just one square between them (okay if the culture levels are still low, since the new city won't be inside the border of the old city) and then the culture of both cities rises to over 1000. What happens to the borders? Obviously, both cities cannot claim all the territory within 4 squares of them.
Here's a visual representation of the above example. S represents a settler.
When the second city is going to be founded:
<pre>
-----
|xxx|
S|xCx|
|xxx|
-----
</pre>
.
Later on: (i.e. now what?) I'm guessing on how 4 square borders look, BTW. a is a square owned by the left city, b is a square owned by the right city, ? is who knows what.
<pre>
-------
--|aa?bb|--
|aaaa?bbbb|
-|aaaa?bbbb|-
|aaaaa?bbbbb|
|aaaaC?Cbbbb|
|aaaaa?bbbbb|
-|aaaa?bbbb|-
|aaaa?bbbb|
--|aa?bb|--
-------
</pre>
.
Hopefully I've helped clarify what I said. I'm getting worried now that I'm just confusing things. I guess what I'm trying to point out is that although a city's culture is critical in determining a civ's borders (and indeed, the civ's culture as a whole is possibly somewhat irrelevant, but then it may help resolve the scenario I proposed above), it's not the only factor. Other rules come into play when borders of different cities interact on the map.
(BTW, forgive the odd periods. The text seems to do funny things in my browser after closing an HTML pre segment.)
I'm trying to find the screenshot I'm referring to, as I think that will make my point clearer, but I can't remember exactly where I saw it, as I've seen tons of screenshots in the past few days. Just imagine two cities with three empty squares between them. They each have a culture under 10, so their normal borders would be one square out. This would leave a single row open between them, with two seperate border areas. However, in the screenshot, the borders had shifted to include those three squares between the two cities that were not within one square of either city. Rather than having two 3x3 areas, they had merged into one 7x3 area.
I'm going to try and draw a text picture, so bear with me if it doesn't work.
This is what the culture rules would expect. C represents a city, - and | represent borders. x represents empty spaces so it's clearer.
<pre>
----- -----
|xxx|x|xxx|
|xCx|x|xCx|
|xxx|x|xxx|
----- -----
</pre>
However, this is what was shown.
<pre>
---------
|xxxxxxx|
|xCxxxCx|
|xxxxxxx|
---------
</pre>
.
I don't really see any other possible explanation for this type of observation.
More generally, the culture rule states where borders would be in the absence of any other influence, but when other of your cities are nearby, the borders can merge in ways we don't exactly understand yet, and obviously if you had two cities from different civilizations with high culture, their borders would conflict, and there have to be resolution rules for that. In the particular shot I saw, it appears possible that if a square is bordered on two sides (maybe it has to be opposite sides) by borders for the same civ, it will be claimed by that civ. Like I said, we don't know the exact rules for how borders merge or conflict yet.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that technically speaking, the culture rating of the city is not the only factor in determining borders, just the major one. There are other rules that apply. If you don't believe me, just think what happens when two civilizations build cities with just one square between them (okay if the culture levels are still low, since the new city won't be inside the border of the old city) and then the culture of both cities rises to over 1000. What happens to the borders? Obviously, both cities cannot claim all the territory within 4 squares of them.
Here's a visual representation of the above example. S represents a settler.
When the second city is going to be founded:
<pre>
-----
|xxx|
S|xCx|
|xxx|
-----
</pre>
.
Later on: (i.e. now what?) I'm guessing on how 4 square borders look, BTW. a is a square owned by the left city, b is a square owned by the right city, ? is who knows what.
<pre>
-------
--|aa?bb|--
|aaaa?bbbb|
-|aaaa?bbbb|-
|aaaaa?bbbbb|
|aaaaC?Cbbbb|
|aaaaa?bbbbb|
-|aaaa?bbbb|-
|aaaa?bbbb|
--|aa?bb|--
-------
</pre>
.
Hopefully I've helped clarify what I said. I'm getting worried now that I'm just confusing things. I guess what I'm trying to point out is that although a city's culture is critical in determining a civ's borders (and indeed, the civ's culture as a whole is possibly somewhat irrelevant, but then it may help resolve the scenario I proposed above), it's not the only factor. Other rules come into play when borders of different cities interact on the map.
(BTW, forgive the odd periods. The text seems to do funny things in my browser after closing an HTML pre segment.)
This might help. I just noticed in the shot that civzombie posted, you can see this same effect at work. Observe the hill directly north of Cinnamon. It is two squares directly north of the city, and outside of the borders (as you would expect applying a 2 square border using the Civ II rules). Now look at the opposite square, i.e. 2 squares directly south of Cinnamon. It is an irrigated square with a road running through it. It is not in a standard 2 square radius of Cinnamon, nor is it in a 1 square radius of Pepper. However, applying just the culture rules, that square would be bordered on the southeast by Pepper and the northwest and northeast by Cinnamon, so it is absorbed into the American player's borders. I'm not sure of the exact rule here, but there is some rule at play.
Nope, it's only 2 tiles, it's just BIG tiles. Compare it with the city tile or the corner-tiles which are not inside the borders.
I admit that the roads and irrigation makes it confusing :crazyeyes
It would be cool though, if the cityradius could be more than just the standard 2 from civ and civ2
What he's referring to (and what you see on the screenshot) are the borders, which can expand beyond 2 (up to 6, but at that point you win the game). However, you are correct, the two cities in the screenshot have border radii of 2 and 1 (Cinnamon and Pepper respectively), representing cultures of 10-99 and 0-9 respectively.
We have seen border radii of at least 4 before though in other screenshots. You can see it in today's new screenshot of the week as well as the one civzombie posted (as I referred to above). The square with the whale in it is not within the standard 2 radius of any Russian city, but it is still inside the Russian border, as are the square containing the Battleship and the one SE of that one. Presumably, these borders are the result of a 100+ culture in Minsk and Sverdlovsk. I'm sure there are other squares in the shot that are not within the standard 2 radius of any Russian city but are still inside Russian borders.
The 2 radius does appear to be the limit for city workers though, as the city shots of cities with culture over 1000 that we've seen still seem to have a worker limit of that radius.
We have seen border radii of at least 4 before though in other screenshots. You can see it in today's new screenshot of the week as well as the one civzombie posted (as I referred to above). The square with the whale in it is not within the standard 2 radius of any Russian city, but it is still inside the Russian border, as are the square containing the Battleship and the one SE of that one. Presumably, these borders are the result of a 100+ culture in Minsk and Sverdlovsk. I'm sure there are other squares in the shot that are not within the standard 2 radius of any Russian city but are still inside Russian borders.
The 2 radius does appear to be the limit for city workers though, as the city shots of cities with culture over 1000 that we've seen still seem to have a worker limit of that radius.
