Boredom, and/or how different types of happiness are calculated in general.

[ridjack]

So before I make any reports about this, I think I need to better understand how happiness works, because on my own I can't make any sense of my situation.

I'm playing as Indonesia on the latest patch. Currently in the Modern era, Progress/Statecraft/Industry/Freedom. Super wide game, I'm the top civ by a mile, and my actual happiness situation is just fine:

Spoiler :

I'm having a fun game being hilariously dominant for once, and angling towards an eventual Diplo victory since I never do that.

But that "Boredom" number is really niggling at me, especially since it's helping Brazil quite a lot in getting influential over me:

Spoiler :

I have every possible building that would be relevant to the situation. And when I say every building, I do mean every building; I'm in the modern era and have been running out of buildings to build:

Spoiler :

I understand that 'always having some unhappiness' is intentional, but this doesn't seem right. Particularly since none of the AIs are having the same problem; the highest bonus Brazil has with anyone else is 72%, also 100% from Boredom. To me, it feels like something is out of whack, but I don't know if that's actually true; and if it isn't true, I definitely don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Rafs]

In my experience, if you go wide you'll have to build public works. The wider you go the more public works you have to build, doesn't matter if you have all policies/wonders, ect... It's just how the scaler works.
If you tailor your policies/religion to help with boredom, you'll probably have to face distress/poverty/illiteracy in it's place (which you can help with a corporation, but not all yields can be helped, only one), so in the end you will still be building PW to keep up the %.
This is very noticeable if you start conquering in the late game, new cities will require at least 5-6 PW to stop generating as much unhappiness as the pop they have (on top of all buildings), at least that was my experience with en empire with 30++ cities.

 

[CrazyG]

I can't answer your question, but I really, really wish museums gave -1 boredom and not -1 illiteracy.

 

[ridjack]

Amen.

Also, the fact that you don't have an answer simultaneously terrifies me and makes me feel a bit better that I don't quite get it.

 

[4CV]

I understand that 'always having some unhappiness' is intentional, but this doesn't seem right. Particularly since none of the AIs are having the same problem; the highest bonus Brazil has with anyone else is 72%, also 100% from Boredom. To me, it feels like something is out of whack, but I don't know if that's actually true; and if it isn't true, I definitely don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

Why do you think you are doing wrong? Empire is not unhappy, also Makassar is not unhappy. Still there are some things you can do to improve happiness. Try what gold focus does. After seaport run Arts process. Eliminate religious unrest. Maybe you can do similar in your other cities.

 

[Bhawb]

Why do you think you are doing wrong? Empire is not unhappy, also Makassar is not unhappy. Still there are some things you can do to improve happiness. Try what gold focus does. After seaport run Arts process. Eliminate religious unrest. Maybe you can do similar in your other cities.

The thing is while he isn't doing anything wrong, the game is punishing him with a huge tourism bonus for Brazil, making it far harder to resist a CV. Imagine if Illiteracy caused other people's science to increase, you'd think something is "wrong", even though it is technically fine.

I honestly think the Boredom modifier just needs to not exist. It isn't fun, active, or fair, and you can end up with a bonus larger than Internet's without doing anything.

 

[Bromar1]

The thing is while he isn't doing anything wrong, the game is punishing him with a huge tourism bonus for Brazil, making it far harder to resist a CV. Imagine if Illiteracy caused other people's science to increase, you'd think something is "wrong", even though it is technically fine.

I honestly think the Boredom modifier just needs to not exist. It isn't fun, active, or fair, and you can end up with a bonus larger than Internet's without doing anything.

I disagree, if it wasn't for the boredom tourism boost then there would be basically nothing a small empire can do to win against a thick warmonger like this. He can't overtake you in science in time, he has no hope of invading you, and you could grind his economy down if you invaded, so I don't see the problem

 

[ridjack]

I disagree, if it wasn't for the boredom tourism boost then there would be basically nothing a small empire can do to win against a thick warmonger like this. He can't overtake you in science in time, he has no hope of invading you, and you could grind his economy down if you invaded, so I don't see the problem

Warmonger! Those are all peacefully settled cities, I'll have you know!

 

[4CV]

Warmonger! Those are all peacefully settled cities, I'll have you know!

Nothing is really "peaceful" in CIV, if you really try to win the game. Be it science, army, tourism; each VC needs aggressive, powerful means to be successful.
You'll loose the war, if your army isn't strong enough to defend your empire. Other civs get great tourism bonus and win cultural domination, if your empire doesn't produce enough culture. That's all the same. The solution is producing more culture, not taking the tourism bonus away.

 

[ridjack]

Nothing is really "peaceful" in CIV, if you really try to win the game. Be it science, army, tourism; each VC needs aggressive, powerful means to be successful.
You'll loose the war, if your army isn't strong enough to defend your empire. Other civs get great tourism bonus and win cultural domination, if your empire doesn't produce enough culture. That's all the same. The solution is producing more culture, not taking the tourism bonus away.

It was humor, my man.

That being said, you seem to have missed a bit of my original post: I literally, physically cannot produce more culture in those cities at that point, aside from the Arts process. The process is fine as a whole, but it is not a solution to a problem like having 2x more Boredom than any other source of unhappiness, and having that particular source of unhappiness be giving such a gigantic boost to another civ.

I also don't necessarily think the tourism bonus from boredom should disappear; the problem is not with the bonus, it's with the happiness. Unless I'm missing something, there's no solid reason I should have that much of a difference in my unhappiness sources when I have all relevant buildings, am working all or most of my sources of culture in all cities, am a leader in techs and generate more culture than even runaway Brazil. It's currently a huge source of unhappiness that is 90% out of my control (with the remaining 10% being "Arts process"), and I don't think that's an okay thing to have.

 

[4CV]

Oh, humour... sometimes I tend to miss that indeed.
Back to culture overview: Brasil influence is only "rising slowly", and you can slow it down even more by running some culture processes, hopefully enough to win your game.
Anyway, if I thought about reporting that situation as possible issue, I'd pump out maximum culture in all cities. Wait what happens and report, if even that can't stop Brazil influence.

 

[ridjack]

Oh, humour... sometimes I tend to miss that indeed.
Back to culture overview: Brasil influence is only "rising slowly", and you can slow it down even more by running some culture processes, hopefully enough to win your game.
Anyway, if I thought about reporting that situation as possible issue, I'd pump out maximum culture in all cities. Wait what happens and report, if even that can't stop Brazil influence.

Eh, I took my own approach to solving the Brazilian Problem:

Don't poke a sleeping bear, kids.

 

[Bhawb]

I disagree, if it wasn't for the boredom tourism boost then there would be basically nothing a small empire can do to win against a thick warmonger like this. He can't overtake you in science in time, he has no hope of invading you, and you could grind his economy down if you invaded, so I don't see the problem

Why should he be able to do anything? You already get a significant tourism bonus for having less cities and Tourism is the one victory condition that actually prefers relatively small empires. But why should he have a chance to win the game after allowing Indonesia to snowball out of control? That isn't how civ works, you don't get to sit around doing nothing and then get a bonus to win against an overwhelmingly dominant civ, you need to actively push to slow them while you do your thing. Sure Brazil can't go to war now, but it was Pedro's responsibility to do something in the last ~400 turns to curb Indonesia's growth through bribing wars, diplomatic efforts, direct war, anything; but he hasn't and now he should lose for it.

 

[ridjack]

This is just silly at this point:

Spoiler :

Aside from those Stadiums (which would only account for -1 happiness each in any case), there are literally no buildings left in the game to address this:

Spoiler :

(I take that back; there are a couple wonders that might change things slightly.)

As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no good reason I should have this kind of boredom going on, and it's happening in multiple cities. Many with numbers like 8 or 9 boredom.

From my PoV now, it's a bug. @Gazebo If you'd like to comment to the contrary I'd be happy to hear your thoughts, but otherwise I'll plan on filing a bug report on GitHub.

 

[Bromar1]

Why should he be able to do anything? You already get a significant tourism bonus for having less cities and Tourism is the one victory condition that actually prefers relatively small empires. But why should he have a chance to win the game after allowing Indonesia to snowball out of control? That isn't how civ works, you don't get to sit around doing nothing and then get a bonus to win against an overwhelmingly dominant civ, you need to actively push to slow them while you do your thing. Sure Brazil can't go to war now, but it was Pedro's responsibility to do something in the last ~400 turns to curb Indonesia's growth through bribing wars, diplomatic efforts, direct war, anything; but he hasn't and now he should lose for it.

I don't think the boredom bonus is really making up for all the things Pedro "should have" done. If Pedro would have done his job keeping Indonesia down, then the tourism bonus might have helped win but in and of itself, it's not handing him a free victory for doing nothing. Even if the boredom bonus was doubled, he would still have lost the same way.

Another big downside to the boredom bonus is that it forces wide empires to view you as a threat. So if anything, the boredom bonus ended up hurting Pedro because it puts a big target on his back.

 

[ridjack]

It's not even that the Boredom exists; that would be crappy in and of itself, but a bit more understandable.

My biggest complaint is that I'm the only one suffering from it despite having higher yields and being unquestionably superior to every other civ in every possible way. And it's not a small difference, either; it's nearly triple the bonus he has with the next civ down the list.

 

[Bhawb]

I don't think the boredom bonus is really making up for all the things Pedro "should have" done. If Pedro would have done his job keeping Indonesia down, then the tourism bonus might have helped win but in and of itself, it's not handing him a free victory for doing nothing. Even if the boredom bonus was doubled, he would still have lost the same way.

Another big downside to the boredom bonus is that it forces wide empires to view you as a threat. So if anything, the boredom bonus ended up hurting Pedro because it puts a big target on his back.

That is a 363% bonus, 3.5 times the largest single bonus in the game (which he couldn't have even unlocked yet), and Pedro has not done a single thing for it. Literally nothing. But now he is getting more positive tourism bonus than if they shared ideology, religion, open borders, trade routes, Passport System, and he had Internet. Why should Boredom, something you have absolutely no control over account for more positive bonuses than all of the active ways to create a bonus? It is completely unwarranted.

 

[Stalker0]

That is a 363% bonus, 3.5 times the largest single bonus in the game (which he couldn't have even unlocked yet), and Pedro has not done a single thing for it.

To my mind, there are two fundamental questions here:

1) Why is his boredom bonus so much higher than other civs? This is not a balance question, this is an understanding of the happiness system (or even the question of whether this is a bug). What has he done that would cause his unhappiness to be so different than other civs?

2) Is this bonus reasonable from a balance standpoint? Assuming we have a reasonable explanation of how he got this bonus, do we think that bonus makes sense from a balance standpoint?

Ultimately I would want to understand number 1 before digging into number 2.

 

[Bromar1]

It's not even that the Boredom exists; that would be crappy in and of itself, but a bit more understandable.

My biggest complaint is that I'm the only one suffering from it despite having higher yields and being unquestionably superior to every other civ in every possible way. And it's not a small difference, either; it's nearly triple the bonus he has with the next civ down the list.

Being super wide means your empire mod is going to be higher so for two identical cities, the one in a wider empire would usually have more boredom.

It's definitely possible that happiness calculations are out of wack but as far as boredom and tourism, I feel like this has always been the intention. We can't just use tourism output because that gets difficult to balance. G has been steadily decreasing flat tourism output over the last several patches. I think "shared religion" , "open borders", "diplomat in capital" , and "trade route connection" tourism modifier all used to be like 30 or 50% but they have all been lowered to 10 so more tourism power has been shifted to boredom.

But I definitely agree that there is double dipping going on. Wider empires are hit with the "they have less cities" modifier and are more likely to have high boredom.

So the question is, should tourism depend on boredom? I could definitely see an argument for removing the boredom bonus and making the other modifiers stronger. However, it's so easy to deny trade routes, diplomats, missionaries, and open borders by declaring a cold war. At least the boredom bonus forces you to actually invade and capture cities

 

[Bromar1]

To my mind, there are two fundamental questions here:

1) Why is his boredom bonus so much higher than other civs? This is not a balance question, this is an understanding of the happiness system (or even the question of whether this is a bug). What has he done that would cause his unhappiness to be so different than other civs?

2) Is this bonus reasonable from a balance standpoint? Assuming we have a reasonable explanation of how he got this bonus, do we think that bonus makes sense from a balance standpoint?

Ultimately I would want to understand number 1 before digging into number 2.

For number 1, I am guessing that the empire modifier is to blame. Assuming all identical cities, a 5 city empire might have 2 boredom/city while a 15 city empire might have 3 boredom/city. He also is leading in techs so it might be even closer to 3.5 boredom/city. So even with all identical cities, you would be comparing 10 boredom total to about 50 boredom.

Now it's entirely possible that there are bugs in the calculation causing it to be higher than it should.