BOTM 01 First Spoiler
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
azzaman333
meh
It should be noted that the save on end turn is created at the time you hit enter, whilst the autosave is created at the start of your next turn.
Looks like you are doing extremely well
I am looking forward to reading more about your progress
(humble opinion)
I do think we should accept the standard settings and a suitable apologetic note to the admins on this one. I'd be surprised if more than half of us have adjusted the autosave setting. Repeat offenders would become very obvious very quickly.
Besides, in terms of cheating, the "information leak" of replaying a turn is much less than of reading the spoiler threads ahead of time (which rely largely on the honour system to prevent). So there's not that much point hermetically sealing the windows against a gas attack when we've left the door wide open.
(/humble opinion)
Harok
Vagabond
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2005
- Messages
- 271
I just received BTS this holiday season so the BotM would be my first completed game with it and I know very little about the new features. I opted for contender and to go with the obvious design of the Ethiopian civ and play a culture game.
I settled in place and started researching AH for the pig and building a worker. When I found Churchill relatively close with no one else around I figured a warrior rush was called for. When the worker completed I had him put a camp on the ivory before pasturing the pig even though it is a far inferior tile but I needed the hammers to get 3 warriors built asap. When my warriors were ready and arrived at his border I found a worker almost done farming his corn so I waited a couple of turns until he finished then declared and stole the worker and took out the lone warrior defending London. London was great for pumping out early workers and settlers once it had reached its pop limit while building workboats, and then would become my main GP farm.
I spit out 3 settlers and founded near the gold/fish for the early commerce, near the marble/corn/ivory/sheep to produce non artist wonders that I wanted, and in the middle of all those floodplains for cottaging up what I wanted as 1 of my 3 culture cities. I planned the others to be the capital getting its culture from every great artist wonder I could pack into it and then one up in the NW part of our land near the corn/pig/deer from cottaging all the grass. I changed my mind on the 3rd one as it was simply so hammer poor and decided instead to make that location another GP farm and moved my 3rd culture city to the one that would build non artist wonders and then cottage all the rest of the land. The idea of focusing non GA wonders in one city is so I can deny it my state religion and not have to worry about it producing any great people as my regular farms with pacifism should be able to outproduce it. I think BTS is a perfect match for a city designed like this because even if you get a single non artist from this city it can start a golden age which is always welcome, especially if you can snag that neat new Maussollos wonder, which gives GA points and makes a golden age 50% longer. I think the city locations were good but I should have built the wonders in another city so I didn't have to deny one of my 3 culture cities a religion for so long.
Things were progressing nicely when the barbs decided to start being a pest and they had 1 lucky bleeping warrior, yes I'm still bitter about him, that cost me many turns. He got some lucky wins against me, I think his odds of winning were something like 15%, 50%, then 5%. I should have been safer and produced a chariot but I had good locations so I figured the warriors could handle the barbs for a while. That one warrior made me whip 2 cities, a number of mad face turns, pillaged my gold hill, and cost me many turns of running a scientist specialist. I was sure he had set me back enough so that I would get beaten to the Oracle but luckily I was still able to get it and take CS with it. I then made a couple of axes and chariots to take out the barb city that had spawned, another spawned after I razed the first and I razed it also, and by then I had founded enough cities and produced fog busters that they would never affect me any more.
At the end of my culture games I almost always end up feeling like I did a poor job of raising GAs so I was going to focus heavily on it in this game. I had 2 great food sites for running specialists, 2 ok ones that would hopefully be able to help out a little, and my capital would build every GA producing wonder it could, besides the National Epic, so it could also produce GAs without a huge food supply. I ran science specialists early on so I could lightbulb Philosophy and as soon as I could spread Conf or Taoism, depending on where they were founded, I would declare a state religion and run Pacifism and Caste System. When London founded Taoism I switched to it in 25AD. This would make me not very well liked but with a continent to myself, no tech trading anyway, and the AI not very good at sea invasions, I know it is supposed to be better in BTS but I hadn't seen it yet, I was willing to take the risk. I hate sitting around waiting for religions to spread so I was content to just have 2. My first 4 GAs all got settled as they came before 500AD which is usually the cutoff date I use. I'm not very good with the math of knowing exactly when to settle versus use them as a great work so I just stick to that date.
I don't see anyone else talking about them but I find the random events in BTS to be completely overpowered, especially in a contest format like the BotM. I hope there is a way to not have them enabled for future games, I find them much more unbalancing than goody huts. The random luck factor they bring to the game is off the charts. I had several good events and some bad ones that could have impacted my game immensely.
Examples
Research
Buildings at 500 AD
I settled in place and started researching AH for the pig and building a worker. When I found Churchill relatively close with no one else around I figured a warrior rush was called for. When the worker completed I had him put a camp on the ivory before pasturing the pig even though it is a far inferior tile but I needed the hammers to get 3 warriors built asap. When my warriors were ready and arrived at his border I found a worker almost done farming his corn so I waited a couple of turns until he finished then declared and stole the worker and took out the lone warrior defending London. London was great for pumping out early workers and settlers once it had reached its pop limit while building workboats, and then would become my main GP farm.
I spit out 3 settlers and founded near the gold/fish for the early commerce, near the marble/corn/ivory/sheep to produce non artist wonders that I wanted, and in the middle of all those floodplains for cottaging up what I wanted as 1 of my 3 culture cities. I planned the others to be the capital getting its culture from every great artist wonder I could pack into it and then one up in the NW part of our land near the corn/pig/deer from cottaging all the grass. I changed my mind on the 3rd one as it was simply so hammer poor and decided instead to make that location another GP farm and moved my 3rd culture city to the one that would build non artist wonders and then cottage all the rest of the land. The idea of focusing non GA wonders in one city is so I can deny it my state religion and not have to worry about it producing any great people as my regular farms with pacifism should be able to outproduce it. I think BTS is a perfect match for a city designed like this because even if you get a single non artist from this city it can start a golden age which is always welcome, especially if you can snag that neat new Maussollos wonder, which gives GA points and makes a golden age 50% longer. I think the city locations were good but I should have built the wonders in another city so I didn't have to deny one of my 3 culture cities a religion for so long.
Things were progressing nicely when the barbs decided to start being a pest and they had 1 lucky bleeping warrior, yes I'm still bitter about him, that cost me many turns. He got some lucky wins against me, I think his odds of winning were something like 15%, 50%, then 5%. I should have been safer and produced a chariot but I had good locations so I figured the warriors could handle the barbs for a while. That one warrior made me whip 2 cities, a number of mad face turns, pillaged my gold hill, and cost me many turns of running a scientist specialist. I was sure he had set me back enough so that I would get beaten to the Oracle but luckily I was still able to get it and take CS with it. I then made a couple of axes and chariots to take out the barb city that had spawned, another spawned after I razed the first and I razed it also, and by then I had founded enough cities and produced fog busters that they would never affect me any more.
At the end of my culture games I almost always end up feeling like I did a poor job of raising GAs so I was going to focus heavily on it in this game. I had 2 great food sites for running specialists, 2 ok ones that would hopefully be able to help out a little, and my capital would build every GA producing wonder it could, besides the National Epic, so it could also produce GAs without a huge food supply. I ran science specialists early on so I could lightbulb Philosophy and as soon as I could spread Conf or Taoism, depending on where they were founded, I would declare a state religion and run Pacifism and Caste System. When London founded Taoism I switched to it in 25AD. This would make me not very well liked but with a continent to myself, no tech trading anyway, and the AI not very good at sea invasions, I know it is supposed to be better in BTS but I hadn't seen it yet, I was willing to take the risk. I hate sitting around waiting for religions to spread so I was content to just have 2. My first 4 GAs all got settled as they came before 500AD which is usually the cutoff date I use. I'm not very good with the math of knowing exactly when to settle versus use them as a great work so I just stick to that date.
I don't see anyone else talking about them but I find the random events in BTS to be completely overpowered, especially in a contest format like the BotM. I hope there is a way to not have them enabled for future games, I find them much more unbalancing than goody huts. The random luck factor they bring to the game is off the charts. I had several good events and some bad ones that could have impacted my game immensely.
Examples
Spoiler :
Research
Spoiler :
Buildings at 500 AD
Spoiler :
Such a shame, I was really looking forward to this one.
Played a few practice games, looks like archery rushes are viable if the right opponent is not too far away. Settled in place, started on warrior. Researched archery then BW, slavery popped the last 2 archers to have 3 archers and 1 warrior that took over London easily at 2825BC.
Went into REX and economy development while laying down base worker techs. 3rd city took in gold and fish, 4th NE of start taking marble, sheep and 1 ivory. Developed well, but London struggled with happiness cap as I took too long hooking it up with rest of cities. Pop rushed the Oracle and took CoL.
Then it all went pear shaped as Aksum got bugged and wouldn't rise above pop 3, stayed forever at 1 turn away, so I gave up.
Shame, would've been a nice game methinks, I might go back and see if I can unbug it by not pop-rushing Oracle. Won't be valid though as too many turns have gone under the bridge.
Played a few practice games, looks like archery rushes are viable if the right opponent is not too far away. Settled in place, started on warrior. Researched archery then BW, slavery popped the last 2 archers to have 3 archers and 1 warrior that took over London easily at 2825BC.
Went into REX and economy development while laying down base worker techs. 3rd city took in gold and fish, 4th NE of start taking marble, sheep and 1 ivory. Developed well, but London struggled with happiness cap as I took too long hooking it up with rest of cities. Pop rushed the Oracle and took CoL.
Then it all went pear shaped as Aksum got bugged and wouldn't rise above pop 3, stayed forever at 1 turn away, so I gave up.
Shame, would've been a nice game methinks, I might go back and see if I can unbug it by not pop-rushing Oracle. Won't be valid though as too many turns have gone under the bridge.
Adonias
Warlord
Did you, by any chance click on the "avoid growth" button in Aksum?
OctavianFlu
Emperor
Well I was mystified how slow things were being built, and researched until I remembered this was an Epic game ... I settled in place, and quickly got the horses linked up, meanwhile scouting with my warrior and scout. I realized that Churchill had a great chance to expand west and take all the floodplains. I quickly went into expansion mode, and got a second city where the blue dot recommended, and started to build a couple of chariots. One of the warriors that was scouting fell next to an unprotected worker on the copper. Seeing how I know I could defend anything Churchill gave me I declared war and took his worker. HEY!! His city is only defended with a worker. I get 2 chariots in striking distance, and here comes an archer ... I was able to flank the archer, kill the warrior, and with my warrior take the city. I had just build a settler, so before long I had four great cities...
Noticing that I was alone with churchill I decided I would let him grow so I can steal any tech's I don't get, meanwhile I proved the globe was round with workboats
how lucky.
I am best friends with Stalin, and my tech is just booming. It seems I am outresearching everyone because of the cottages I built on the floodplains... Needless to say, I am trying for a cultural victory, but we'll have to wait and see if anyone tries to attack me to prevent said victory.
Can't wait to see the outcome of this game ....
Noticing that I was alone with churchill I decided I would let him grow so I can steal any tech's I don't get, meanwhile I proved the globe was round with workboats
how lucky.I am best friends with Stalin, and my tech is just booming. It seems I am outresearching everyone because of the cottages I built on the floodplains... Needless to say, I am trying for a cultural victory, but we'll have to wait and see if anyone tries to attack me to prevent said victory.
Can't wait to see the outcome of this game ....
ngraner42
Ultrarunner
I agree with Harok that the random events are unsuitable for GOTM play. Depending on the timing of their occurrence and what your plans are they can make a huge impact. In practice games I have seen the random band of barbarians take out an AI.
On the playability side I find the bad events completely annoying. It is like your boss agrees to every once in a while flip a coin, heads he comes by and thanks you for doing your job and tails he slaps you. I don't think this would add to my enjoyment of the work place and I think the random events similarly take away from the enjoyment of Civ.
In my game I lost a couple key tile improvement in quick succession early in the game where it was a significant percentage of my economy. Later I had several mature village/town tiles destroyed by a Volcano. I guess you are not supposed to take the risk of cottaging near mountains. But if you take the risk and win you will outperform the people who play it safe.
On the playability side I find the bad events completely annoying. It is like your boss agrees to every once in a while flip a coin, heads he comes by and thanks you for doing your job and tails he slaps you. I don't think this would add to my enjoyment of the work place and I think the random events similarly take away from the enjoyment of Civ.
In my game I lost a couple key tile improvement in quick succession early in the game where it was a significant percentage of my economy. Later I had several mature village/town tiles destroyed by a Volcano. I guess you are not supposed to take the risk of cottaging near mountains. But if you take the risk and win you will outperform the people who play it safe.
azzaman333
meh
Personally, I wouldn't play the BotM if random events were removed. They are too much fun, and taking them out would really hurt it IMO.
ArcadicGamer
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2007
- Messages
- 259
Not to mention all of the "good" or better events do have alot of defining conditions in which they are applied. In particular, most of them require a treasury of 100G or more to do, which is a severe change from the games before it. While there will always be a luck factor to actualy getting them, down the road we will probably see strats in which people build Walls in the hope of them getting +1 commerce, or other such items.
Oh how the penny drops!
You know, I always assumed avoid growth was simply "do your best not to grow, but it still may happen". I never realized it would actually throw away food at the end of the turn to stay the same size.
Oh well, another important lesson learnt the hard way.
Thanks.
Harbourboy
Deity
Man. I can't believe how so many people have managed to kill the English so quickly. I built a load of axes to go and attack him, but by then he had cities packed full of nuclear powered archers that must have been fighting barbarians for 100s of years to get all those promotions. So I had to pull back and meanwhile his power graph went into the stratosphere.
So I suppose I am going for Culture or Space now. I have Pyramids, Great Library and Parthenon, but only one religion. I'm probably in a halfway house between the two conditions so will end up doing achieving neither.
But as this is my first Beyond the Sword game, my expectations are not high.
So I suppose I am going for Culture or Space now. I have Pyramids, Great Library and Parthenon, but only one religion. I'm probably in a halfway house between the two conditions so will end up doing achieving neither.
But as this is my first Beyond the Sword game, my expectations are not high.
Bob_the_Silent
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2004
- Messages
- 74
Same here. I built some axes pretty early on and lost most of them to Churchill's defending (and well upgraded) archers. So I decided to go for construction and war elephants and finally defeated Churchill in about 400-500AD.
I have a nice tech lead and will try to launch the Spaceship
I have a nice tech lead and will try to launch the Spaceship
I won I won I won!! 
This was a great game. Unfortunately, before 500AD nothing interesting happened... Me and churchill live in peace in the inicial island. I have 5 cities in the west side, and churchill has 4 I think.
When the final spoiler comes out, I'll tell you how the rest of the game was. And believe me, it was really breath taking ( at least for me
)
This was a great game. Unfortunately, before 500AD nothing interesting happened... Me and churchill live in peace in the inicial island. I have 5 cities in the west side, and churchill has 4 I think.
When the final spoiler comes out, I'll tell you how the rest of the game was. And believe me, it was really breath taking ( at least for me
)
ChrisFromLux
former 'Misfit'
I hope you know that Churchill is 'protective', which gives him free City Garrison I and Drill I promotions for all Archery and Gunpowder units
Harbourboy
Deity
His archers all had 4 promotions not 2 so they must have been fighting someone.....
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
bah
i settled in place (contender), found Churchill, sent 3 warriors, took London.
double bah
i tried the CS sling despite the distance Lodon-Aksum, and i was beaten to the Oracle in 675 BC. What i expected that they build it in the ADs?
Then started pyramids in London, beaten for 20 turns.
Saved, at least i got a continent for me, but i need to think.
My 1-neuron-brain needs a pause.
How can i do those stupid things after all those games played?
Is actually my brain dropped to 1 neuron?
It's prince, and with no tech trading i can do something, but i'll finish in 1900
shame, shame aaaaaaaaarghhhh
i settled in place (contender), found Churchill, sent 3 warriors, took London.
double bah
i tried the CS sling despite the distance Lodon-Aksum, and i was beaten to the Oracle in 675 BC. What i expected that they build it in the ADs?
Then started pyramids in London, beaten for 20 turns.
Saved, at least i got a continent for me, but i need to think.
My 1-neuron-brain needs a pause.
How can i do those stupid things after all those games played?
Is actually my brain dropped to 1 neuron?
It's prince, and with no tech trading i can do something, but i'll finish in 1900
shame, shame aaaaaaaaarghhhh
MarkM
Cow Herder
Played [contender] up to 500 & beyond right away after save was available on 12/15 & then went on vacation a couple weeks after Christmas. Didn't take notes so all this is a little hazy, here's what I can reconstruct from my memory & the log:
Had speculated in pre-game thread about moving to hills & settling there for extra hammer, but when I moved scout there I thought a while & did something I normally don't do -- settle on a resource (the ivory) to get extra output from city square & (I think, can't recall) I reasoned the having that inland lake in initial city radius, in combination, would let me 1) produce worker & 2) get BW quicker. I think so, I went to check image in pre-game thread to refresh my memory but the screenshot seems to be a broken link now.
As stated above, BW was what I went for first. Meanwhile the scout suffered the fate that seems to always plague me in GOTM -- dying in first few dozen turns due to animal attack -- but not before discovering chruchill on turn 5. I'd been planning to chop/whip a settler after getting BW, but finding the English (and their protective trait ... shudder), with London in such a sweet spot (so much better than mine!) & mercifully not on a hill, and finally no opportunity to trade tech in this game, made me decide to roll the dice and make a laser-beam focus on going for Winnie's jugular ASAP. After getting the worker on turn 17 and BW on 19, I threw everything into a warrior rush strategy & manged to chop/whip four warriors over a seven turn span, turns 24-31. After taking seemingly forever to get to London, I'm happy to see when I get there that there are no archers yet & only one warrior (a second was out exploring near Aksum) so I attack on turn 44, taking London in 2875BC (do I have the record so far with that date?) also a worker, with a warrior to spare even (was veryworried I might lose all 4 to fortified defenders, that would have been a nightmare with his other warriro right on my doorstep at the time). Right after BW I research AH and subsequently found the horses near Aksum, I'm glad I didn't find them earlier or I might've been tempted to wait to do a chariot rush & I think Churchill would have been a much tougher nut to crack by then. Also, very annoyingly, only two turns (!) after finishing that pasture, on turn 43, a random event wiped it out & I had to move back there & do it again, that would have made it extra difficult if I needed it for a chariot rush.
After London fell not much more of interest happened before 500AD, I did not have as tight a focus on a goal as I did with warrior rush. I slowly expanded to nearly fill starting continent, after realizing I was alone I beelined to get Judaism (1125 BC) because I was afraid I would have no religion. It is founded in London, which was very convenient, it is definitely going to be my WS city now! As I later encounter other civs I found most still had no religion (the founders of Budhism & Hinduism were the last two i encountered -- not sure i'm allowed to say who they are in this spoiler -- and no one else had encountered them before me), so Judaism spread to most of rest of world too, motivating me to push to be the one to build apostolic palace, in 40 AD, in London (effectively my main city, Aksum was pretty much just a springboard for me to take London; I eventually rebuilt the palace in a city on the river in the center of the continent to reduce maintenance costs & Aksum becomes a relative backwater, maybe my 5th city).
I established a pretty good tech lead, circumnavigated the globe, founded the next two religions after Judaism as well, and as 500 AD rolls around I find myself at/near the head of the pack, at peace for all but 2 turns of the game & with no plans to fight anytime soon, still colonising my starting continent, just finishing researching Education (after which I immediately shut down my research completely & build up treasury while I universities are under construction). I've built a lot of wonders, incl Colossus and Great Library, but dally in building two key ones & get beat out in the middle of building them: Oracle and Pyramds. In case of Oracle just by a couple turns away
WHAT'S NEXT: I've only played BTS a few games, and always at a higher level, so I've always been beat to building the AP before, and haven't done anything at all with corporations since 3.00 or 3.03 (in which corporations were still pretty buggy & my experience was not positive). I don't have any clear plans for victory from here, after reading some stuff on BTS forum I decide I'd like to really explore using AP & Corps more, so it becomes yet another one of my typical unhurried meandering game while I experiment & learn for a while until finally deciding it's time to get more focused again & end it (where I am arriving at now, much later).
ADDED: I suppose I could have been much more concise & just said:
Had speculated in pre-game thread about moving to hills & settling there for extra hammer, but when I moved scout there I thought a while & did something I normally don't do -- settle on a resource (the ivory) to get extra output from city square & (I think, can't recall) I reasoned the having that inland lake in initial city radius, in combination, would let me 1) produce worker & 2) get BW quicker. I think so, I went to check image in pre-game thread to refresh my memory but the screenshot seems to be a broken link now.
As stated above, BW was what I went for first. Meanwhile the scout suffered the fate that seems to always plague me in GOTM -- dying in first few dozen turns due to animal attack -- but not before discovering chruchill on turn 5. I'd been planning to chop/whip a settler after getting BW, but finding the English (and their protective trait ... shudder), with London in such a sweet spot (so much better than mine!) & mercifully not on a hill, and finally no opportunity to trade tech in this game, made me decide to roll the dice and make a laser-beam focus on going for Winnie's jugular ASAP. After getting the worker on turn 17 and BW on 19, I threw everything into a warrior rush strategy & manged to chop/whip four warriors over a seven turn span, turns 24-31. After taking seemingly forever to get to London, I'm happy to see when I get there that there are no archers yet & only one warrior (a second was out exploring near Aksum) so I attack on turn 44, taking London in 2875BC (do I have the record so far with that date?) also a worker, with a warrior to spare even (was veryworried I might lose all 4 to fortified defenders, that would have been a nightmare with his other warriro right on my doorstep at the time). Right after BW I research AH and subsequently found the horses near Aksum, I'm glad I didn't find them earlier or I might've been tempted to wait to do a chariot rush & I think Churchill would have been a much tougher nut to crack by then. Also, very annoyingly, only two turns (!) after finishing that pasture, on turn 43, a random event wiped it out & I had to move back there & do it again, that would have made it extra difficult if I needed it for a chariot rush.
After London fell not much more of interest happened before 500AD, I did not have as tight a focus on a goal as I did with warrior rush. I slowly expanded to nearly fill starting continent, after realizing I was alone I beelined to get Judaism (1125 BC) because I was afraid I would have no religion. It is founded in London, which was very convenient, it is definitely going to be my WS city now! As I later encounter other civs I found most still had no religion (the founders of Budhism & Hinduism were the last two i encountered -- not sure i'm allowed to say who they are in this spoiler -- and no one else had encountered them before me), so Judaism spread to most of rest of world too, motivating me to push to be the one to build apostolic palace, in 40 AD, in London (effectively my main city, Aksum was pretty much just a springboard for me to take London; I eventually rebuilt the palace in a city on the river in the center of the continent to reduce maintenance costs & Aksum becomes a relative backwater, maybe my 5th city).
I established a pretty good tech lead, circumnavigated the globe, founded the next two religions after Judaism as well, and as 500 AD rolls around I find myself at/near the head of the pack, at peace for all but 2 turns of the game & with no plans to fight anytime soon, still colonising my starting continent, just finishing researching Education (after which I immediately shut down my research completely & build up treasury while I universities are under construction). I've built a lot of wonders, incl Colossus and Great Library, but dally in building two key ones & get beat out in the middle of building them: Oracle and Pyramds. In case of Oracle just by a couple turns away
WHAT'S NEXT: I've only played BTS a few games, and always at a higher level, so I've always been beat to building the AP before, and haven't done anything at all with corporations since 3.00 or 3.03 (in which corporations were still pretty buggy & my experience was not positive). I don't have any clear plans for victory from here, after reading some stuff on BTS forum I decide I'd like to really explore using AP & Corps more, so it becomes yet another one of my typical unhurried meandering game while I experiment & learn for a while until finally deciding it's time to get more focused again & end it (where I am arriving at now, much later).
ADDED: I suppose I could have been much more concise & just said:
MarkM
Cow Herder
Just to second, I also stole a couple techs (though much later, in AD) so I'm sure it was allowed. No Great Spy required either. Remember though it won't appear as an option for spy unless 1) there is a tech that you don't have to steal, and 2) you have enough points to actually do it. It will appear on the chart on the espionage screen for each city though, and can be expensive unless you have a nice espionage ratio against the other civ & even then you might want to park the spy in the city for 5 turns ...
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