BOTM 26 Final Spoiler

[Jbourne]

Thanks.

Unfortunately the HoF mod doesn't recognize that I have administrator rights so I can't submit. I enjoyed the game nonetheless.

Thats too bad. Is there no fixes for your problem?

 

[srad]

Thanks.

Unfortunately the HoF mod doesn't recognize that I have administrator rights so I can't submit. I enjoyed the game nonetheless.

Oh no. That's sad.

 

[Ribannah]

Thats too bad. Is there no fixes for your problem?

Not that I am aware of. It may be an index error in .Net or something like that, rather than an error in the HoF program. I'm glad that I can run the game at all.

 

[Grifftavian]

Adventurer Save/Monarch Level.

First Spoiler post here.

So how did you fare?
Cultural Victory in 1914 AD, 13K points My first win at the Monarch Level!!!!

Nine cities and 12,825,000 population (3rd in land area & 6th in population).

It turned out to be a very peaceful game for me. Excellent relations with neighbors Darius & ZY throughout, thanks mainly to shared Buddhist religion and frequent resource & tech trades.

Only one war: in 1872 AD Lincoln & his vassal Mansa DOWed me, but by then I had defensive pacts with Darius & ZY. My part in the war only lasted three turns, thanks to a favorable UN vote to stop the war against Sitting Bull, leaving Lincoln & vassal Mansa to fight it out with Darius & ZY

Very nice game & map, thanks Niklas

 

[jesusin]

In addition, my first GP was a scientist used for Academy, my second GP was also a scientist used for another academy, and then my next to last GP was a Priest who was settled for a few measly Sistine culture points. Everything else was GA's... 4 settled and rest bombed (1-4-1).

I don't think those settled GA where worth it. With only 2 religions did they really give you more than a culture bomb would have?

 

[PutCashIn]

Well done Grifftavian, winning at Monarch and above feels pretty good, yeah?

 

[Grifftavian]

Well done Grifftavian, winning at Monarch and above feels pretty good, yeah?

Thanks! I don't have any of those "and above" wins yet, and I made a few mistakes in this one, but yes, my first Monarch win was very enjoyable!

 

[jesusin]

Congratulations, Grifftavian

Many good cultural games reported, I wish I had gone for culture this game.

 

[kcd_swede]

I don't think those settled GA where worth it. With only 2 religions did they really give you more than a culture bomb would have?

I'm pretty sure the first one did, but the second one was probably slightly worse than a bulb. But I don't really know, because the way I would calculate it is very lazy: I'd look in city screen and see how many turns to legendary status (and discount it by about 25% since things will pick up). I take the amount of culture a settled GA would give per turn (including multipliers if any) and multiply it by the number of turns. If it even comes close to the amount of a bulb I'd probably choose to settle for the immediate benefits of expanding borders, and a bit of gold per turn that probably helps me keep slider pressed to 100% culture longer.

Although to be honest, I usually don't even think it through that carefully. If I see it as a LOOOOONG way to finish, I settle. I guess it really bugs me holding on to any GPerson, as the value of any GPerson is generally decreasing with time the longer you wait to use it (by this I mean benefits obtained earlier are worth more than those obtained later, even if the later ones are numerically superior). The worst is when I hold him for 3 or four turns before deciding to settle him or her.

For me, if I put more into the numbers than that it stops being a game and starts being a math problem. But I must also admit that my basic understanding of the culture victory condition comes from your guide, even if I haven't the discipline to put it to full use. I hope my application of your guide does not embarass you too much.

And if you assert that all the GA's should probably have been bulbed, it gives me something to consider next time I'm facing that choice.

 

[jesusin]

I'm pretty sure the first one did, but the second one was probably slightly worse than a bulb. But I don't really know, because the way I would calculate it is very lazy: I'd look in city screen and see how many turns to legendary status (and discount it by about 25% since things will pick up). I take the amount of culture a settled GA would give per turn (including multipliers if any) and multiply it by the number of turns. If it even comes close to the amount of a bulb I'd probably choose to settle for the immediate benefits of expanding borders, and a bit of gold per turn that probably helps me keep slider pressed to 100% culture longer.

What a lousy way of calculating things!
May I ask, where in this algorithm do you consider which city will you be settling the GA?



I only settle in the city with the most multipliers. I ask myself:

Will I have enough GA to bomb in the end of the game to make all cities finish in the same turn? If not, don't settle.
Multiply the number of turns to the estimated victory date by the mean multiplier factor of the city from now to the victory date. Is it close to what a Great Work would give? If not, don't settle.

And if you assert that all the GA's should probably have been bulbed, it gives me something to consider next time I'm facing that choice.

I haven't seen you're game so I really don't know. My bet would be the first one, if really early, was worth settling. The 4th one wasn't. The other two probably wasn't.


By the way, the value aof a GP is not always decreasing with time. It is decreasing if you plan to settle. It is slightly increasing if you plan to bulb. It is constant if you plan to launch a Golden Age or a GreatWork.

 

[Grifftavian]

Congratulations, Grifftavian

Many good cultural games reported, I wish I had gone for culture this game.

Thanks! Your guide really helped me get the Cultural Victory

FYI, some more info on my game...

I got 2 Great Scientists from the Capitol before I turned it into a GA Farm. The first build an Academy in the Capitol, the second bulbed Philosophy and I founded Taoism ~ 175 AD. IIRC, I switch Civics to Pacifism right away, since I had Buddhism in most, if not all cities, by this point.

While bee-lining Liberalism, I was first to Theology and founded Christianity ~ 450 AD, and I used 1 or 2 Great Artists to bulb Divine Right and founded Islam ~ 1120 AD. So I had four religions in total, including Buddhism which spread from Darius.

I was first to Liberalism in my game, and took Nationalism for the free tech, changed Civics to Free Speech, then set the research slider to 0% and ran max Culture (initially 60% IIRC) ~ 1200 AD.

I didn't get to build The Pyramids, so maybe I should have left the Science slider at 10% or 20% so I could have gotten Constitution & Representation Civic sooner.

LC1/Capitol (settled in place & did not move) had...

• Academy
• 4 Temples
• 4 Monasteries
• 1 Cathedral
• National Epic
• The Parthenon

LC2/Mound City had...

• 4 Temples
• 4 Monasteries
• 4 Cathedrals
• 1 Settled Great Artist

LC3/Chaco Canyon had...

• 4 Temples
• 4 Monasteries
• 4 Cathedrals
• 1 Settled Great Artist
• The Hermitage
• Taoist Holy City (no shrine)

Looking back through my 20/20 hindsight eyeglasses, I see that I forgot to build The Globe Theater in one of these cities

I saved 8 Great Artists, and used them all to culture bomb these 3 cities to LC status on the final turn of my game.

 

[killerloop]

Adventurer

Finally back to CIV iv since botm 6! A long time!

On my way to a cultural win, but no time to finish in time.

Reading through all threads I seem to be the only one who managed two religions myself early in the game. I got myself Hindu and Conf via Oracle slingshot. Send my missionary to ZY to make him Conf as well. Darius then was just a convincing matter.

Was able to get the horses to the W and Iron in N. Missed out on stone, but got that later via cultural expansion.

Kept myself to 6 cities, no war sofar, we really are partners in Confu. The other continent are firendly as well till now.

Also was able to get to Music 1st.

I realise this is probably because of adventurer.

Anyway, it's good to see GOTM is still alive, let's see how BOTM27 will run.

 

[killerloop]

BTW: This BUG Mod is a great development. This really saves oodles of time. Tx to all developers!!

 

[uXs]

I've wanted to play one of these for a long time, but I was always too lazy. Except for this weekend, when I tried my first GotM.

To make a short story a bit shorter: I retired in 1650AD. I had just spent way too long in a futile war against Darius, allowing the other dude to get way ahead in score/tech/power/anything really. Then I met Lincoln, and he was similarly ahead in everything. No way I can get back up there in time to win, so I quit.

I don't think I made any obvious mistakes (to me anyway, I'm sure I made a ton), except for throwing way too many units at Darius' capital when I should have gone for weaker targets first. Also I lost 3 workers in one turn to barbarians at some point which rather stunted my growth.

 

[kcd_swede]

What a lousy way of calculating things!
May I ask, where in this algorithm do you consider which city will you be settling the GA?



I only settle in the city with the most multipliers. I ask myself:

Will I have enough GA to bomb in the end of the game to make all cities finish in the same turn? If not, don't settle.
Multiply the number of turns to the estimated victory date by the mean multiplier factor of the city from now to the victory date. Is it close to what a Great Work would give? If not, don't settle.

This is very good advice and I really should follow it. I would say that in general I tend to settle the GA in whichever city I need to balance the rate at which they approach Legendary status. Very sub-optimal, I suppose, since multipliers aren't even all built by then (we're talking +100 turns to finish). I then try to put multipliers where they'll do the most good and then see what happens. Without much experience at culture victories, it would take me a lot more work to really do it efficiently. Your guide still has a lot to offer even for those of us who won't do it justice in our games.

I still do things like forget to switch to Free Speech and stuff... so please take into consideration who you have to work with here.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Putative domination win around 1925, if I'd had enough patience to finish.

Congrats to srad for the only (and very impressive) Dom win! My contrarian streak decided against culture (that and the fact that there were only 2 religions on our continent for several ages) so I went for blood. I DoWed Darius in 425 AD, took a few cities and extorted 3 techs and some gold in 840 AD. Zara had immediately DoWed me and I kept fighting him until 1040 when I got peace after capturing Debre Berham and releasing it. Zara was just so freakin' huge! After recovering for a bit I killed Darius in 1130. DoWed Zara again in 1200, just when Mansa sailed by to say hi. I gave peace again in 1330, this time on better terms for me, getting 3 techs and more gold. I DoWed one last time in 1440 and killed him in 1740. Mine, all mine!!!!

I traded for somebody's map in 1515 and saw all of the other continent. And holy cow, were they ever way ahead of me in tech! Confusion (AP religion) finally spread to my continent in 1765 and that very same turn there was an AP election, which was unanimous (yes, really, apart from my piddly abstention vote) for William. Niklas may recall from our Smurkz days that I have a pathological fear of AI religious victories so I feverishly spread Confusion to nearly all my cities (26 or so?) within 10 turns and adopted that as my religion. Naturally, Mansa got Mass Media immediately before the next AP vote so my efforts were nearly for naught--at least I got to build a bunch of AP-religious buildings for the extra hammers.

Mansa built the UN and was elected (again, unanimously apart from my self-vote) in 1838. When I finally had enough ships and rifles (or was it infantry?), I attacked Gandhi in 1848. That same turn, a UN diplo victory vote (almost as annoying as religion victory votes ) came up and Mansa got 500 vs my 342--he only needed 20 more to win. Meanwhile, Lincoln had just finished his Life Support unit! I got Industrialism that turn and discovered that there was no aluminum anywhere in the world! Just one of Niklas' little suprises??

Anyway, I took 3 of Gandhi's cities and then the wimp vassalized himself to Lincoln. The other AI are in a defensive pact. Grand. Knowing that capturing enough land will be a long hard slog I take a couple weeks off and debate whether or not I want to spend the time (and perhaps lose). Well... sure, what the heck, I'll give it a shot on the last weekend--what better way to spend President's Day?

I settle down to beeline to Computers and build the Internet in 1882---never had to do that before, but I got 9 techs! Once I could build Mech Inf I attacked everybody (no choice, since they were all allies at that point) and nuked liberally. Lincoln had SDI so I left him alone after awhile, other than beating off his units trying to retake Gandhi's cities. Wm and Mansa each nuked me once, but it was a pretty pathetic effort on their part--my fears were much worse than the reality. It was ugly and very tiresome, but once I got to 60% land (needed 64%) and had Gandhi and Mansa down to 1 city each I called it a night (1919 AD). Lincoln had nearly completed his spaceship but I'm pretty sure it would take longer for it to arrive than for my captured cities to come out of revolt and claim enough land for the win.

I haven't lost an Emperor game in years, but I had several big scares this time and had to really sweat being so far behind on techs. Nice touch putting all those tech-trading lovebirds on the other continent, Niklas! I'm going to have to avoid conquest and domination on anything bigger than a small map in the future--just too tedious for me. On the other hand, there's no way I could come close to many of the dates achieved by other means in this game , so perhaps it was (almost) worth the effort.

 

[Deckhand]

Another exciting, down to the wire, "will the AI win before time runs out to submit?", game. Also an emotional roller coaster.

Started out slowly. Major financial problems. Probably because I didn't get around to cottaging the flood plain at first. Did get the fish city between us and Zara. Third city grabbed the stone before Darius. But, he beat me to the horses and fur. Had six cities with another one to the west, one in the south with iron and the silver city.
Discouraged because my finances were abominable and the AIs were so strong.

Second session, I got lucky when Zara Dow'd Darius. Managed to capture Pasargadae (east of lake, west of flood plains) ahead of Zara and let him attack the capital (it had the Buddhist shrine!) then I took it. Took two more cities from Darius. Then luck ran out when Darius vassalized to Zara. Another nice thing was that Zara built the Apostolic Palace. So, we were best buds and my religious buildings had extra hammers. I was the resident in the end of the game, and didn't learn Mass Media, but couldn't get enough votes for a victory.

Third session. Build lots of cannons and drafted lots of rifles, then pay lots of money to upgrade cannons to artillery and rifles to infantry. First game IIRC where I had a Globe Theater Drafting City. It took me a long time to get ready to attack my neighbors. And when I did, the invasion of Ethiopia went very badly.
Big mistake: invaded instead of taking forum advice to let AI send his SOD to me (I've never really done that). Bigger mistake: Two front war, invading Persia and Ethiopia simultaneously. I managed to take two more Persian cities, but my march thru Ethiopia which was supposed to be: city 1, then capital, then wonder spam city; ended with loss of city 1 and loss of my army (group south). At this time I was airlifting reinforcements to the front. I did get peace at the price of a city I put on desert coast.

OK, I am discouraged again. And it took a week or so to continue the game. I'm not going to be able to conquer my continent. Maybe I can win space race. I'm behind in techs but catch up by trading and stealing. Then I notice that Willem is 23 turns from a Cultural Victory. Oh the despair.

Fifth and final session. Ok, lets not give up. Eight spies succeed in two cathedral sabotage missions to buy a little time. Then the turn before Ultrech goes Legendary: I DoW, capture and raze The Hague. Amsterdam was defended by 44 land units and The Hague by only 5. All I had was 2 carriers, 1 BB, 2 Destroyers, and three transports (with marines). That's the good news.
Now I am in a race with Lincoln to finish our spaceships. I was the first to fusion and stole Genetics from Zara. But before I can finish my ship, Zara sabotages a part, Lincoln launches and Zara sabotages another part. Abe launched with only one engine but I couldn't launch at all. Finally launch the turn before I lose.

Perhaps I could have won with more time and micro (sabotage Lincoln, duh). I submitted the game with an hour to spare and it was really exciting at the end, wondering if I could win and hoping to finish on time.

Oh, I was so focused on Space Race and espionage (and trying to play fast) that I didn't notice that Zara was replacing my Mining Incorporated companies with his Creative Construction companies. And (perhaps because of Creative Construction in his cities) I lost several border tiles in the last decade. There goes the green ambulance.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender. Goal: fastest space victory. Result: 1812AD space victory


Facts:

At 100AD I had moved my capital to a cottages city, I had 2 Academies, one per capital, I revolted to Bureaucracy, I had 9 cities and I had half eaten Darius.

Accepted peace for techs, took some barb cities, finished Darius, built Moai in silver city.

13 cities at 500AD.

Get GLib, get HE, get NE, fail on MoM. Settle most GPs in the new capital.

Oxford 840AD. I had the cities ready for whipping Universities much sooner, but I detoured to get Lite, Construction, etc due to the slow war.


1000AD Stats: 15 cities, 122 pop, 12 workers, 33 units (0Maces), 3 strategic resources, 4 luxury resources, 7 health resources, 4 great persons, 2 world wonders, 5 national wonders, food/production/commerce=333-134-562, 376 sustainable beakers per turn, 48 culture per turn, 122 great person points per turn, 200 gold. 2 religions. 37/37 cottages used, 33 Techs: Educ, no Philo, Lite, Optics. 1 civs killed. 17.5 hours played.


I start WW for money. Circumnavigation. Lots of trades with the other continent, even if helping them. I take Astro from Liberalism because Musa is close to finishing Educ, it is great because I can trade for 3 new health and happy resources.

As I lose TajMaj, I don't revolt to FR immediately. 1370AD I launch a GAge. My civics are Repr, Bu, slav, merc, FR.

I prioritize Infantry over Biology. I get surprised by the effects of Levee in the new capital. I build 17 infantry in 5 turns and go for Zara.

1500AD I have 19 cities, 1400 sustainable bpt. The NatPark city I was hoping to get from Zara has been completely deforested, I build a new one somewhere else but it's too late.

Accept Zara capitulation. Biiiiiiiiiiig mistake. I'm at 23 cities. Use a GM for money, get SoL. 1550AD: 2200bpt.

Delay the techs for Apollo in order not to lose Ivory and furs happiness. Big mistake. ChristoRed saves me from Emancipation unhappiness, Civics: Repr, FS, Eman, StPr, FR.

1630AD: 2500bpt, I realize I will finish research sooner than Apollo. Burn a GE on 3Gorges, get out of StPr and get AlCorp in order to get the resource Rusten is worried about. I learn it doesn't give the resource to all cities but only to infected cities.

1710AD: 4000bpt, Apollo finished. Start GAge. Go back to Bureaucracy.
1745AD: end of research. Revolt to US.
1780AD: Launch. (ooooh, 7 turns of production, I am ashamed, should have been 1).
1812AD: Win, 3rd Future Tech in.


Analysis:

I am wrong in that I always take my decisions as if the situation would never change and the game would last 1000 more turns.

A direct consequence of this is that I always choose to sacrifice research now for going for one more pop. I am always at the happiness limit.

As a result, every time a war gets long, I panic. Every time someone goes into Emancipation I panic. Every time I get the tech that obsoletes Ivory I panic. The problem is not my panic, the problem is the sacrifices I've made to get that additional pop, that now is not only not contributing, but being a burden.

When I realized the end of research was "close" I estimated 50 turns left. Then I went through my cities thinking "if only 50 turns left, then growing again now is not worth it, let's hire some scientists instead of working food tiles". Then I redid my estimate. 30 turns left. Hey! "if only 30 turns, then finishing that Observatory is not really worth it, let's build research instead".

Well, you know the end of the story, 20 turns later I had finished research. all decisions taken in the previous 30 turns had been wrong. More than enough to get this yours truly perfectionist depressed. I hope this game doesn't get an Award, it doesn't deserve it.

 

[jesusin]

Thanks! Your guide really helped me get the Cultural Victory

FYI, some more info on my game...

I got 2 Great Scientists from the Capitol before I turned it into a GA Farm. The first build an Academy in the Capitol, the second bulbed Philosophy and I founded Taoism ~ 175 AD. IIRC, I switch Civics to Pacifism right away, since I had Buddhism in most, if not all cities, by this point.

While bee-lining Liberalism, I was first to Theology and founded Christianity ~ 450 AD, and I used 1 or 2 Great Artists to bulb Divine Right and founded Islam ~ 1120 AD. So I had four religions in total, including Buddhism which spread from Darius.

I was first to Liberalism in my game, and took Nationalism for the free tech, changed Civics to Free Speech, then set the research slider to 0% and ran max Culture (initially 60% IIRC) ~ 1200 AD.

I didn't get to build The Pyramids, so maybe I should have left the Science slider at 10% or 20% so I could have gotten Constitution & Representation Civic sooner.

LC1/Capitol (settled in place & did not move) had...

• Academy
• 4 Temples
• 4 Monasteries
• 1 Cathedral
• National Epic
• The Parthenon

LC2/Mound City had...

• 4 Temples
• 4 Monasteries
• 4 Cathedrals
• 1 Settled Great Artist

LC3/Chaco Canyon had...

• 4 Temples
• 4 Monasteries
• 4 Cathedrals
• 1 Settled Great Artist
• The Hermitage
• Taoist Holy City (no shrine)

Looking back through my 20/20 hindsight eyeglasses, I see that I forgot to build The Globe Theater in one of these cities

I saved 8 Great Artists, and used them all to culture bomb these 3 cities to LC status on the final turn of my game.

Looking good!

Only one thing...
Did one of the 8 culture bombs go to LC3?

If so, then you would have been better by settling the LC2 GA in LC3 instead, then in the end bombing in LC2 instead of LC3.

Both bombs are worth the same, but artists settled in LC3 are worth more due to the extra multipliers (Hermitage).

 

[Grifftavian]

Looking good!

Only one thing...
Did one of the 8 culture bombs go to LC3?

If so, then you would have been better by settling the LC2 GA in LC3 instead, then in the end bombing in LC2 instead of LC3.

Both bombs are worth the same, but artists settled in LC3 are worth more due to the extra multipliers (Hermitage).

IIRC, I used the 8 GAs for culture bombs on my final turn as follows...

1. Capitol/LC1 = 2
2. LC2 = 4
3. LC3 = 2

I don't recall if I settled the GAs before or after I had built The Hermitage, but I'll try to remember that next time I attempt a Cultural Victory.

Once again, thanks for the feedback on my game