Branch Davidian 10th Anniversary

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by onejayhawk
Well and good. What I find disturbing is that he appears to have been attacked BECAUSE he was practicing an unpopular religious faith. If so, and the evidence is substantial though not unequivocal, then did not the BATF willfully violate a citizen's constitutional rights. Not only that, but the level of force brought to bear was out of proportion to the known situation. There is strong evidence that the members of the compound were fighting what they believed to be an armed invasion and not a lawful service of summons. I find the Bureau's reasoning and procedures at least as chilling as Koresh's. You make allusion to what he had planned. By all appearances, it was on the scale of a new Camero.

Many people have accused President Bush of being a dictator in these forums. I see much more evidence of it here by a headless bureauocracy.

J

If you think posting this twice is going to have more effect, forget it!
What I speak of has nothing to do with Bush, why you bring him into the discussion is beyond me.

I agree with SewerStarFish,

Own a gun? Fine and good.
Have a religion? Great.
Total abuse of power? Not good.
Using religion as a decadent ego-trip? Get out of town.
Firing at law officers? You are going to be killed.

The Waco disaster happened because Koresh had created a little world,
in which outsiders were 'the enemy', much like Manson and his followers in Spahn ranch.
And you see where that religious cult leader ended up in his concepts.

Anyone 'invading' the happy Koresh world was to be eliminated.
Eventually, Koresh would have ordered attacks on the outside.
What were the weapons hoarded for, Hawk? A joke?
He was a dangerous power-freak, although he might have not started of that way.
An armed cult like Branch Davidian is a danger to all and sundry.
In no way should they be allowed to flourish outside of Federal US law.

Have a theology, have a 12 gauge, by all means.
But act like a loon, abuse people and attack the law...

Well, you deserve all you get.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Civddict
who is he?

Abusive Cult leader based in Waco, Texas.
After hoarding a large arsenal, fell foul of the law, dying with his misguided followers.

The concept of 'my right to a gun', gone all wrong.

A link that will give you much data on this figure;
http://www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html

 

[napoleon526]

Originally posted by joespaniel
I guess in good conscience I must call off my weekend Bar-BQ plans.

Bad doggy!

 

[Pongui]

I thought the big mistake was declaring independence and raising a flag. There was a radio station too, I believe.

Sleeping with kids? Do we have any evidence Koresh actually abused children besides testimony from some flakey, suggestible ex-followers who hear voices? Or do we imagine this because he shared a bed with kids? It seems to me like something sane people like to believe.

 

[meldor]

I am a republican, and I do lay the blame for this directly at the feet of Reno and Clinton.

First, a few facts:
1) We have a constitutional right to bear arms. Those rights are not dependant on your world view or religous view. None of the people at the compound were felons. What reasons they have for aquiring those guns is irrelavent until they commit a criminal act. Being paranoid is not a crime.

2) They govenment knew ahead of time that the people inside the compound where paraniod of a government raid. They had been indoctinated to believe that such an event would be the start of the end of the world. What they did was to execute the exact scenerio that would drive these people to their worst response.

3) All of the people at the compound went into town. David himself could have been captured outside of the compound without anyone else getting hurt. This would have made the job of executing the search warrant a lot easier.

4) The operation was mishandled each and every step of the way and the public was lied to about what was done and what was found. How long did it take the government to admit that they were the ones that started the fire? Even then they blamed it on the people inside. They allowed the execution of a simple search warrant and arrest to blow up into an armed stand-off, on international tv. The way it was handled, left no one involved with any way it resolve it but utter catastrophy. To one side it played into their worst fears, to the other side it became a major embarrasment that needed quick resolution.

They never proved (to my satisfacation) that anyone inside had anything but legal weapons that had been legally aquired. Their was no massive stockpile of automatic weapons, there was no large cache of explosives. The whole philosophy of this group actually spoke against them doing something against anyone outside the group. They were preparing for the goverment to come after them. They also never proved to my satisfaction that he was a child molester. This one only came out after the other charges against the people inside failed to really stick with the public. It was used to stop growing support from all sides. No one can support a child molester. Their are plenty of people that are paraniod of the government and have built compounds, stockpiled weapons and food, and prepared for a government invasion. None of them have had the same treatment unless the they had previous and current criminal activities.

I think this was a case of a local BTF agent finding out about the compuund and trying to make a name blew it out of proportion. Once the wheels started turning and it hit the news, it got out of hand. A sure recipe for tragedy.

It could have been handled much easier and with less loss of life. They could have just arrested each member as they came outside the compound. Once the people inside determined that anyone who went out, didn't come back, they would have stopped coming out for a while. The compound could not support them forever. Most likely a deal could have been worked out on allow someone in to look for illegal weapns had it been handled differently. Showing up at teh door with armed officers and threatening everyone if orders weren't obeyed was not the way to get it done.

I will give Janet Reno one thing, she stepped up and tool the blame, but did she have a choice. Ultimately we know that it was Clinton that made that choice to start the last assualt. Reno was just blocking any blame from going up the ladder. However, as we learned, if you control the crimianl justice system, youcan pretty well stop any investigation.

For this tragedy, the actions at Ruby Ridge, and others, Janet Reno and her boss, violated more of our constitutional rights than the current administration has yet to dream about. These weren't laws that redefined search and seizure or modified due process (all of which is still subject to judical review). These were direct violations of the constitution that went unanswered. Criminal acts, and even today they are ignored. That is scarier than the Patriot act.

 

[CurtSibling]

They should have just dropped a daisy-cutter on the compound.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Anyone ever hear of a band called "The Waco Bros."? It would be good rock and roll to play at your barbecue, Joe.

They have a song called "Dollar Bill the Cowboy" which I always thought back in the day was prophetic...

"The last president of the United States, is Dollar Bill the Cowboy..."

 

[Remorseless]

Let's not get into this "right to own a gun" debate. The 2nd Amendment includes an important caveat about a well-regulated militia being important to the security of the nation -- which the gun lobby convienently leaves out in all of its discussions. Besides, as a journalist, I live and die on the basis of the 1st Amendment, yet there are restrictions placed on me despite the amendment (libel being one). Ergo, SCOTUS in all its manifestations and line-ups has decided even amendmens to the constitution have limits, as does the constitution itself.

I actually did a few stories during the 51-DAY STANDOFF for some regional papers, and let's be clear about this: if that had been a bunch of Black Panthers or Friends of Palestine in there, the ATF, FBI, Texas Rangers and the Texas National Guard would have laid waste to the place within a few hours, not sit outside wringing their hands and trying to negotiate with some nut who kept saying he would be right out as soon as he figured out the Seventh Seal.

And those people in there had 51 DAYS to surrender, to contact lawyers, etc. How can any reasoning parent expose their child to that kind of situation for 51 days?

It's always funny that the extreme right complains about how soft government is on crime until they're accused, then suddenly big government is stripping them of their rights. Can't have it both ways, guys.

It is illegal to own fully-automatic weapons, it is illegal to own functional hand grenades, both of which WERE found in the rubble of Koresh's little paradise. Koresh was not in trouble because of his wacko Waco religion (he's way less nutty than Jehovah's Witnesses who speak in tongues or the Church of Latter Day Saints), he was in trouble because he was dealing in illegal firearms.

Gun nuts, you don't like the laws, change them in Congress and state legislatures.

 

[SewerStarFish]

On topic: Remorseless is right on - the government gave the Davidians every chance to have their case heard in a court of law.

Off topic : Renorseless is a little off: The Amendments that give the individual rights use the words "the right of the people" and the states rights " the state". The 2nd clearly uses "the right of the people" and it was the enforcement of the just limitations to that right that provided the ATF with a warrant issued by a judge.

 

[JollyRoger]

Originally posted by meldor
For this tragedy, the actions at Ruby Ridge, and others, Janet Reno and her boss, violated more of our constitutional rights than the current administration has yet to dream about. These weren't laws that redefined search and seizure or modified due process (all of which is still subject to judical review). These were direct violations of the constitution that went unanswered. Criminal acts, and even today they are ignored. That is scarier than the Patriot act.

The seige at Ruby Ridge occurred in August 1992. It's bad enough to blame Clinton for things that are happening during King George II's reign, but I don't think you can hold Clinton responsible for the events that occurred during the reign of King George I.

 

[Mojotronica]

Originally posted by JollyRoger


The seige at Ruby Ridge occurred in August 1992. It's bad enough to blame Clinton for things that are happening during King George II's reign, but I don't think you can hold Clinton responsible for the events that occurred during the reign of King George I.

meldor --

He's got you there -- Ruby Ridge happened on Bush's watch. Blaming Clinton and Reno for it is revisionist history at it's worst.

Waco occured VERY early in Clinton's administration. Reno was appointed just in time to have to deal with the stand-off.

Insofar as the initial raid is concerned, I don't think Clinton had much to do with it. It was just another ATF operation that shouldn't have evoked much interest at the Presidential level.

Clinton and Reno are accountable for the consequences of the stand-off, for the way it was handled after the initial raid. I find it disturbing that it ended the way it did too.

However if we're going to play the "blame game" I think that you have to take into account that Ruby Ridge and Waco came at the heel of twelve years of law-and-order Republican Presidencies... I think that the initial operation was a product of the law-and-order/war on drugs crappola that was unleashed on the American people under those Presidents.

AFTER Waco, the ATF cleaned-up it's act. Only the Elian Gonzales episode evoked as much national response, and it was resolved without bloodshed. If you want to blame Clinton and Reno for Waco, you could at least give them credit for not repeating the mistake...

The ATF did not clean up it's act after Ruby Ridge, under Bush's watch. It did so after Waco, under Clinton's watch.

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by Remorseless
I actually did a few stories during the 51-DAY STANDOFF for some regional papers, and let's be clear about this: if that had been a bunch of Black Panthers or Friends of Palestine in there, the ATF, FBI, Texas Rangers and the Texas National Guard would have laid waste to the place within a few hours, not sit outside wringing their hands and trying to negotiate with some nut who kept saying he would be right out as soon as he figured out the Seventh Seal.

In a word, BS. If it were a militant group of racial segregationist antigovernment white supremicists fundamentalist Baptists, to name the most offensive group I think accually exists, it would have been handled the same way. Also If you read my posts you will see that what happened after the raid I lay on DK and his followers. My problem is with the days leading up to the raid.

Originally posted by Remorseless
It is illegal to own fully-automatic weapons, it is illegal to own functional hand grenades, both of which WERE found in the rubble of Koresh's little paradise. Koresh was not in trouble because of his wacko Waco religion (he's way less nutty than Jehovah's Witnesses who speak in tongues or the Church of Latter Day Saints), he was in trouble because he was dealing in illegal firearms.

Gun nuts, you don't like the laws, change them in Congress and state legislatures.

The evidence has conclusively shown tha there were no automatic weapons on the premises. Such evidence would easily survive the blaze. That was a red herring from before day one. Nor has there ever been any evidence of illegal firearms related transactions. The presence of BATF is by any legal standard a reach. I have problems when governmental entities consider themselves empowered to judge who is abnormal enough to persecute. That is a fair reading of the situation. Consider for a moment these tactics being used on Communists in the 1950's or Black groups in the 1960's.

J

PS For the record I do not own any firearms, and have never, nor do I intend to.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Originally posted by onejayhawk

PS For the record I do not own any firearms, and have never, nor do I intend to.

Well, turn over your firearms or we will lead a coalition to disarm you!

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Well, turn over your firearms or we will lead a coalition to disarm you!

I have a box of rubber bands. Will that do? Feel free to search for antything else. I'll show you where everything is, let you talk to anyone, stay out of the way if that is what you want.

I have never been documented as aggressively hostile, not do I have a history of deceit and deception concerning weapons, nor have I ever been ordered by a person or body of authority to surrender anything I was known to possess at one time. Further no one has compiled a substantial file of evidence that I am concealing or have concealed such things in the past. There is someone who fits all those points, but I cannot think of his name.

J

PS Nice try SB, but black is not white, regardless ofthe quality of the light.

 

[JollyRoger]

Originally posted by onejayhawk
I have a box of rubber bands. Will that do? Feel free to search for antything else. I'll show you where everything is, let you talk to anyone, stay out of the way if that is what you want.

I have never been documented as aggressively hostile, not do I have a history of deceit and deception concerning weapons, nor have I ever been ordered by a person or body of authority to surrender anything I was known to possess at one time. Further no one has compiled a substantial file of evidence that I am concealing or have concealed such things in the past. There is someone who fits all those points, but I cannot think of his name.

J

PS Nice try SB, but black is not white, regardless ofthe quality of the light.

We'll need to test the range of those rubberbands to make sure they are allowed. You have admitted having a personal link to DK himself and we still haven't accounted for the missing automatic weapons that we raided for, so who knows, maybe you have them and have been concealing them for over ten years. And don't be so sure that no one has been compling a substancial file on you - its just not public yet. All cats are grey in the dark. We just need to shed some false light on your situation to get the color that we need.

 

[SewerStarFish]

Mojotronica wrote:I think that you have to take into account that Ruby Ridge and Waco came at the heel of twelve years of law-and-order Republican Presidencies... I think that the initial operation was a product of the law-and-order/war on drugs crappola that was unleashed on the American people under those Presidents.

Goodness knows unleashing Law & Order is to blame. Why if we started enforcing every law that was passed we'd have to actually obey them. Sheesh,what were they thinking?

 

[SewerStarFish]

Mojotronica wrote:I think that you have to take into account that Ruby Ridge and Waco came at the heel of twelve years of law-and-order Republican Presidencies... I think that the initial operation was a product of the law-and-order/war on drugs crappola that was unleashed on the American people under those Presidents.

Goodness knows unleashing Law & Order is to blame. Why if we started enforcing every law that was passed we'd have to actually obey them. Sheesh,what were they thinking?

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

If we started enforcing every law that was passed you'd see a lot more corporations heading for Trinidad.

 

[onejayhawk]

I should never have let my thread get jacked like this. It is precisely the point that Saddam Hussein and David Koresh are NOT comparable. Yet I see a dichotomy.

Various posters have shown very little sympathy for DK because in essence, he got what he deserved. Never mind that the BATF used excessive and unjustified force. SH on the other hand, and in other threads, is getting precisely that break, that any force is excessive, even though the evidence is, if not damning, certainly compelling. DK had a track record of cooperating with court orders and warrents. SH has the opposite. Why are we condemning DK and beging lenience for SH?

J

PS Black cats are NOT grey in the dark. Trust me I have tested the matter.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Dark green is harder to see than black in the dark.

Let the record show I'm not condemning Koresh. There was no proof that I know of of any threatening wrongdoing until the tear gas and tanks rolled in.

And I'm not so happy with Saddam's lack of cooperation either.

And I'm sorry if I participated in a threadjack. Today's the real anniversary, and I for one would like to see people express their sympathetic regrets to the innocents who fell prey to David's evil charisma and Reno's uncontrollable agents. Unless they are the kind of people who think it's always the fault of the lawbreaker.