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Brave Jay's Review of Leader Traits

Brave Jay

Warlord
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
243
Location
Texas
I will list the 8 current traits in the order that I believe are the strongest to the weakest and try to explain why. Keep in mind that I believe that Firaxis has done a decent job of balancing the traits, so just because i put one a few slots higher than the other doesn't mean that I think it's necessarily waaaaaaaay better. I'm also not trying to put down what I think the majority of people agree with. Being as objective as possible, I am attempting to weigh the benefits and possible applications of each to determine what I think is the strongest. It may be that I haven't had as much experience with some traits as others and therefore have not fully realized their potential. Feel free to make any suggestions with reguards to any advantage or dis-advantage that I may have (and probably have) missed. Also, any comments questions or suggestions are most welcome:)


1. Industrial:
-50% production bonus of wonders
-double production speed of forges



-Advantages: Industrial in my opinion is the strongest single trait in the game. The bonus for constructing wonders offers a great variety of possible strategies. It helps you to tailor make a strategy based on the type of wonders you go for. The wonder bonus also enables you to simulate some of the other traits such as creative from building stonehenge, or philisophical from building the parthenon. I like to try to simulate financial with the colossus. Although you must have a good amount of coastal cities to get the most out of it, you have a great chance of getting it because as and industrial leader, you get to make the required building for the colossus(forge) at double speed. Speaking of the forge, it is one of the most powerful buildings you can build in the early game, right next to courthouses, and maybe even more powerful than them. The obvious bonus of forges is a production boost of 25%, which is great whether you are a builder or a warmonger or both. However, you should not overlook the other effects. If you can get the required metals (gold, silver, gems) you get an extra happy face for each one! A possible 3 bonus of happiness makes the forge potentially the best building there is in the game. also, the engineer specialist is nice to have for any cities that are low on hammers. All in all, Industrious just seems to offer more of everything, and when playing a strategy game, the more strategic choices one has, the better.




2. Financial:
- 1 extra commerce on any plot that gives 2 or more



-Advantages: Financial is considered by many to be the most powerful trait in the game. I probably would have it number one if you could still build banks at double speed. It is a great bonus to have because commerce is essentially everything. It controls research, it controls how many units you can support and supply, and it controls how large your empire can be. So obviously, the more commerce the better. One who uses financial will almost certainly be building a lot of cottages. Cottages provide a great reward to anyone who is disciplined and committed to growing their economy early. But like all rewards, there is risk involved. Aside from the micro-managing of every tile to get them to balance out just right for maximum cottagation (t.m.) Their is always the worry of being attacked and losing either your city that you've invested so many turns developing, or having your full grown towns pillaged. But to those who overcome, There is a mid to late game complete financial and scientific supremacy awaiting. You don't have to do a pure cottage spam to get the benefit of financial, but thats like having a porsche and never speeding.




3. Organized:
-civics upkeep half price
-double production speed of courthouses
-double production speed of lighthouses



Advantages: Organized is my favorite trait. Many balk at the half price civics and talk about how little gold it saves. One thing they forget to think about is that you do nothing to recieve the bonus, you don't have to found a religion and build a shrine, you don't have to cottage spam and wait a hundred turns, it's there from start to finish, and while some people get in a financial crunch and fore go their favorite civic or most needed civic at the time, the organized player rarely gives it a thought. I find that when I am not organized I can have about 4 or maybe 5 cities before i start to feel the upkeep cost getting heavy. In contrast, I can build about 5 to 7 cities when i am organized before feeling the same effects. While I know that organized does not have any direct effect on city maintenance, It certainly does have an indirect effect of off setting some of the cost by how much you are saving on civics. When you can expand your empire an extra couple of cities in the early game, you know you have a distinct advantage. double production speed of courthouses is an empire builders dream. If you've ever had a sprawling empire with a crumbling economy and had to pay full price for a courthouse, you know what i'm talking about when i talk about how great cheaper courthouses are. And when you can quickly build 7 of them, you qualify to build the mother of all courthouses, the forbidden palace. double production of the lighthouse is just the cherry on top of the sundae. My dad used to always say, "It's not what you make, its what you save." This is so very true if you are organized.




4. Philisophical:
-100% bonus to great people points
-double production speed of universities



Advantages: Philisophical to me is one of the really fun traits in the game. What can be more fun than cranking out various great people each with special super powers that can help to turn the tide of the game in your favor? great people are cool and very strategic. whether you use them to time a golden age just right, dicover a tech, or inbed them in your cities as super specialists, the strategic choices are almost endless. if you employ the civic caste system, you can have greater control over what type of great person you get. Want to impose your culture on your neighbors? make some great artists, want to make a super science city? settle all of your great scientist in your science city along with the acadamey and oxford university. or how about commerce and production? Then consentrate on great prophets and settle them in the city of your choice. Apart from all of the great person fun you can have, you will also be building some super cities that will help put you in the lead for production, science and gold. Double production speed of universities will greatly help you in your science city because when you get 7 universities twice as fast, you can build Oxford univeristy a lot sooner than you would if you had to build them at regular speed.




5. Agressive:
-melee and gunpowder units begin with combat 1 promotion
-double production speed of barracks
-double production speed of drydocks



Advantages: With melee and gunpowder units starting with the combat 1 promotion, the aggressive civ gets a head start on the promotion tree. This makes for interesting strategic choices to be made which can give you the advantage on the battlefield. If you have a barracks, vassalage civic, and Theocracy civic, you can really have fun upgrading some units and specializing them. So, just as great people and specialists can help specialize a city, so can this combo of unit promotions help to specialize your army. For example, say you have an enemy that has a strong army and you want to use a flanking surprise attack. If you have galleys, or better yet galleons, you could take your combat one promoted axemen, swordsmen, or macemen and use their next promotion for combat 2, followed by amphibious and basically create your own mideival navy seals! Agressive also gets to build barracks and drydocks twice as fast which are a great help in producing promoted units, and drydocks enables you to produce naval units much faster with promotions.


6. Creative:
-All cities recieve +2 culture/turn
-double production speed of theaters
-double production speed of coloseums



Advantages: I really like this trait. I wish I could rate it higher. but one of them has to be number 6 :sad: . + 2 culture a turn is really nice, especially in the early game. The only thing more fun than watching your borders push outward without having to build anything is watching your borders engulf your neighbor's city that was stupidly placed next to your borders. It is a sweet feeling to take over a city without firing a shot! This bonus is enhanced by some very good culture buildings. The theater is great for extra border pushing, and if you have dyes, will add happiness. Both buildings will increase happiness when the culture slider is in use. This makes for a powerful weapon in times of war. Just by moving your slider you can quench war weariness if you've built your cheap theaters and coloseums. In short, border pushing+extra happiness during wartime= :hammer: for your enemies




still working on this list.... i had to take a break, i will edit and finish later:)
 
Keep up the good work...
 
I'm thinking about rating the traits with a score based on a few categories. I have some of them in mind, but if anyone wants to suggest a category to rate them by, for example, Overall strategic benefits, or Military strength, or Builder's Strength, or Fun/Excitement factor, please feel free. anyway, i'm mulling them around right now. Also don't be afraid to post something, because i haven't done anything like this before so feedback is nice.
 
Industrious is certainly one of the more fun traits, as there are few nicer things than to be able to construct plenty of wonders. Just good plain fun.

Organised can save a fortune, but for me I'd rather take financial simply due to the early boost to tech and the sooner you get to things like feudalism and construction the better as far as I'm concerned.

Philosophical is an interesting one and goes alongside Industrial in terms of being fun as there are few things more enjoyable than getting a great leader. The key is you're getting great leaders earlier in the game when they can really race you through some expensive tech. Given the rising cost of great leaders it doesn't in my view provide a vast long-term benefit, but it is that advantage in the classical to medieval period that make it worth having.

Aggressive...now, I love this trait and hate coming up against units from civs with it. A cheap barracks and then you're playing with a +25% against archers (if against AI) or +25% against melee for humans and you're doing well. Bring in theocracy and such (vassalage) as we're talking grenadiers able to amphibious from ships and you're laughing. Aggressive is one of the strongest traits as a huge part of the online game is about survival and destruction of your enemies and in single-player about taking out A.I cities early to get yourself big enough to overcome the production penalties (which at emperor and immortal are substantial).

Expansionistic - love the cheap granaries for quicker growth, love the extra health in the long term and for flood plain city and love the cheap harbours which give a major boost in gold. One of the reasons to love Victoria over Elizabeth in my opinion...I'd take this over philosophical, creative or organised.

Creative, nice to have, but as stonehenge does the job for such a low price and gives great leader points and +8 or so culture a turn it isn't too important. Add to the fact that theaters are hardly expensive and it becomes rather worthless comparatively. The main benefit is definitely when taking cities that the +2/turn gets conquered cities back to productivity sooner...but, that isn't enough given the benefits of the other traits. I'd place this trait last.

Spiritual, I love this trait as I change civics often and resent any turns in anarchy. The cheap religious buildings are just icing on the cake and out of personal preference rather than any great calculation of worth I'd put this trait 3rd behind financial and aggressive.



My trait preference order:

Financial, Aggressive, Spiritual, Expansionistic, Philosophical, Industrial, Organised, Creative.

Organised slips mainly as it isn't as fun as philosophical and I'm not really a fan of playing as the organised trait civs with the exception of Japan and that is due to a cool UU and aggressive trait.
 
I see so many people shine of creative trat, but for me it is very important and my prefered trat.
Many say, well, obelisk or stonehedge will give same effect. No, it does not.
Even after you build obelisk and stonehedge it still takes 10 turns for border expand. With creative you have automatic 5 turn expand. That let you to disregard small initial city radius when place the city. It lets to better cities faster and faster land improvement.
After initial land grab creative continue to work to push on opponent boundaries.
Next biggest bonus come for warmondering.
Now you can whipe theater for 1 pop for border expance and happiness, making your new cities profitable that mach faster.

Cheap theaters and colliseums making it mach easier for you to combut wwar wareness and increase happiness in your cities.

My personal preference list going like:

Creative, spiritual, philosofical, agressive, industrial, expansionist, orgonised, financial
 
The ranking of the traits if you're playing at Prince is completely different than if you're playing at Immortal. Racing the AI for wonders just isn't so feasible at high difficulty levels.
 
DaviddesJ said:
The ranking of the traits if you're playing at Prince is completely different than if you're playing at Immortal. Racing the AI for wonders just isn't so feasible at high difficulty levels.



Good point. I do play on Prince/Monarch, and i'm sure it does make a big difference when playing higher levels. However, while you may not get nearly as many wonders on immortal or deity as you will on prince, you will at least have a good shot at a few if you focus in on it compared to not having industrial trait where you would have to rely on sheer luck to get even a couple of wonders. I still think that double forge production speed is a great bonus despite the weakening of the wonder bonus at higher levels. I can't see that many people playing on ridiculously high levels overall. I know on this fansite there are quite a few that can and do play on that level, but to be certain, those people make up a small percentage of all the people playing the game.
 
While your critique of the individual traits is solid, it might not be such a good idea to rate each trait in a total vacuum. After all, with each trait comes another trait, starting techs(which may or may not include mysticism) a UU, and, come warlords, a UB.
For instance, your trait critique states that Qin, a Financial/Industrious civ, is the best Civ in the game. The problem is, both of these traits try to hog the spotlight. Financial states, cottages, ports, rivers, and more cottages, while industrious states mines, farms to support mines, wonders, and more mines. You only have so many squares. Further more, your UU deals collateral damage and is excellent against melee units, so are you going to war with it? Are you even using it at all? The problem is Qin is not that he has so many options, but rather that when you decide a trait, the other one doesn't really help it. Your Production cities get squat from financial, and your commerce cities get squat from industrious (at least, not until Universal Sufferage.)
In reverse, your bottom three traits are Spiritual, Creative, and Expansive, meaning that Isabella, Cyrus, and Hatshepsut are the worst leaders in the game. Isabella has been shown to be an effective spiritual warmonger, particularly when Conquistadors come around, and while her spiritual trait and starting with mysticism is the key to her empire (Placate the conquered cities with religion) her expansive trait quietly allows her cities to grow without health problems, leading to surprisingly large cities in her interior.
Cyrus is personally one of my favorite leaders, and is no slouch. His traits provide excellent assistance with city management and growth, so the direction is for the most part provided by his UU, which has nothing to fear in his era sans spearmen (I personally have found the immortal does quite well against axemen with a shock promotion). Cyrus is also, used by yourself or the AI, one of the best landgrabbers in the game. Finally, none of these ideas force you into a specific strategy, allowing you to adapt to the AI as you see fit.
Hatshepsut, like Cyrus, has a strong early game UU, the War Chariot, which she can use combined with her spiritual trait to, like Isabella, conquer much of the world and placate her newly conquered people with religion, using creative as a quieter trait to assist with early expansion of these newly Egyptian cities (Even after you found calendar).
On the other hand, Hatshepsut could also take a more peaceful builders path, using multiple religions and her creative trait to create a quick cultural victory using cathedrals.
Of course, I'm not saying that Qin is the worst leader, nor am I saying that Egypt, Spain, and Persia are the best Civ's. All I'm saying is that the idea of rating traits based on usefulness might be somewhat arbitrary, considering the simple fact that, no matter how powerful or pathetic one trait is, it still doesn't vary too much from the pack, and if it did, Firaxis would change it in game patches.
 
Excellent points indeed :goodjob: I wasn't trying to insinuate that one "leader" would be so much better than the other by rating the traits as i have. trait combos is something that i have thus far failed to address in my rating. As you mentioned, there are very many factors that vary from game to game as situations dictate. I may think that expansive is the weakest overall trait in the game, but I certainly don't think it is totally useless. When comined with a good complimentary trait such as spiritual it has a way of getting a boost and increasing its overall strength. I also didn't want to imply that financial and industrious are necessarily the greatest combo of traits in the game. Industrious and philisophical could be interesting... ;) Thanx for pointing this out because you are exactly right, i just didn't think about it yet. My purpose for rating traits is not to bolster one and put down another, but rather to open peoples eyes to some under rated traits and have a better appreciation for them. In fact, I refuse to dog any of them because in the right situation, you need the right trait, not someone elses (like me) opinion of which is best.
 
Brave Jay said:
I also didn't want to imply that financial and industrious are necessarily the greatest combo of traits in the game. Industrious and philisophical could be interesting... ;) .

Firaxis left out the Ind.+ Phil. combo b/c the synergy deciededly unbalancing the game. From what I understand though in one of the early builds it was Rome that had this combo. Imagine an Ind. + Phil. Rome with Prats :eek:. The problem was that one of the testers was able to get like a third of the tech tree from great people. I would not expect this combo in warlords.

I enjoy am enjoying your evaluation of the traits.
 
Thanks for not taking my critique to hard, you do have alot of good points in here, but I was just trying to point out some flaws.
Usually when I pick a civ I like having a trait that doesn't demand something of you like Industrious and Financial. Admittedly your bottom three traits aren't exactly going to win the game on their own, but they're quite helpful when you've got a civ thats aggressive or financial, rather than being both and having to try warmonger and cottage farm at the same time (In other words, Tokugawa is considered better than Huanya Capac at aggressive games for a reason)
On the other hand, Qin and Huanya are great choices for people who dont want to be pidgeonholed into a specific plan (Try making a good axe rush when your closest neighbor is Mansa!) so when you are willing to adapt or don't have much of an idea of how you want to win your game, Qin and Huanya are fantastic choices.
Its a good thing that you are noting the POSITIVES of each trait instead of bashing creative, spiritual, and expansive like other people do. After all, you would rather be spiritual and expansive than not have any leader traits at all!
 
Actually, the way I pick a leader doesn't necessarily depend on the exact combo trait. I know that some combos are more synergetic than others, but a lot of times I just want a creative civ. I may be craving the industrial trait, or organized. Once I decide the main trait i want, then I consider other things like what complimentary trait will come with it, and what uu the civ has and so forth. Thanks for the feed back and I'm gonna finish this eventually, but with 3 new traits on the way that I haven't played with yet, I'm in no hurry. ;)
 
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