Breaking the Compact

[BugReportage]

Odio broke the compact by actively fighting in creation.
Acheron didn't break the compact by smuggling himself into creation and fighting in it...
Actually Dragons can enter creation and not break the compact. I was told Dragons were a form of angel, if that's true then angels fighting in creation isn't breaking the compact.
I DO understand why Hyborem and Basium can remain despite breaking the compact. Just like when Mulcarn broke the compact and the Gods sent another angel to fight him. Hyborem was summoned and Basium was summoned to combat him.

You could try to extend this to the Sheaim and Kuriotates dragons BUT your conclusion will always have the hole of Acheron. With that said even if Acheron did this of his own accord with no help from Bhall, why isn't he being punished for ignoring the compact. Bhall does not protect him because he doesn't listen to her.

You could argue if a mortal summons an angel it's not breaking the compact, like orc's hatred summoning Acheron. But once again you have the problem that MORTALS summoned Mulcarn and that DID break the compact.

The definition of the Compact is any attempt for a God to directly impose his will on creation. And I know for a fact Sabathiel can not directly enter creation without breaking the compact and if that's true other archangels can't either.

But if they lose their immortality they may enter? (Sphener)
Is Cassiel mortal? And if he isn't then why doesn't his presence break the Compact? He is directly imposing his will on Creation by simply telling souls his form of the truth.

 

[orangelex44]

I'll answer what I can, I make no pretense at actually being right, though....

I'm not sure about Odio, I have to read the 'pedia again and I don't have it on this computer.

Dragons are godly creations, but they really aren't angels, per se. They are more like intelligent weapons. As such, they weren't bound by the Compact but were simply put in storage against a rainy day - unfortunately, these are thinking weapons and a select few have escaped this banishment. Their patron gods, for whatever reason, haven't called them back to heel. This is probably because the Compact wasn't broken and the dragons escaped on their own; had they been sent back there would be some arguments between the heavens and hells.

Cassiel is mortal, as I understand it; however, angels don't die from aging, or even sickness (probably). They need a mortal wound.

By the same token, Sphenor and Basium are mortal as well - they apply under the "mortal angels aren't bound" clause of the Compact.

Hyborem is a special case; I'm not sure why he's allowed to be an immortal angel in creation.

Of course, there is the fact that the Compact is really only binding to the gods, not their followers - and furthermore, the Compact is only binding if someone chooses to enforce it. Junil, for instance, would be very particular about it (making Sphenor give up immortality) while Agares is going to try to get away with everything he can. Since no god really wants to start the godswar over again, he gets away with a lot...

So, in my theory, Sabathiel could very well enter creation if Junil would allow it. Agares probably wouldn't say anything, since his archangel is wrecking havoc.

That doesn't quite explain why Basium lost his immortality, but I'd guess he either gave it up voluntarily from his own beliefs OR he it was taken from him by Arawn, who is the god of Death (and, formerly, Life) and can do things like that. Cassiel falls under the same question mark - I think he's mortal, but he may not have to be and if he is, it's probably due to his own beliefs.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Odio only broke the compact because he took some of Aeron's power with him. When Aeron withdrew his power from Odio, he became a mortal angel like Cassiel and Basium and then promptly got pwn'd by Kilmorph. So my guess is that the compact goes something like this:

Full-fledged gods: No entry into creation whatsoever unless it's to counteract someone else's meddling (Kilmorph sealing Odio and Succellus fighting Mulcarn).

Angels and Demons: Allowed free, unrestricted access if (and only if) they abandon the service (and power) of their god (Cassiel and Sphener). Can also be summoned temporarily by mages, in which case they may or may not keep their powers.

I'm guessing "temporarily" is deliberately vague, as both Hyborem and Basium could loosely count as "summons" (going by how they show up in the game), but they last a lot longer than most do and aren't bound to whoever summoned them. As such, they're both violating the compact in some respect but nobody is willing to reign them in out of fear of angering the other side.

 

[Kael]

There a lot of evidence of archangels in creation in the pedia, so they are definitly out causing trouble.

In the D&D games Basium broke the compact but he is no longer under the arda of any god. Basium going rogue is one thing, Basium going rogue with the support of a god is something quite different.

The compact does lay out specific protections for men and creation. Basically that the gods are unable to influence men unless the men have commited to that influence. That doesnt mean that men have a lot of power over it, men are largely unaware of the compact at all, let alone the specific restrictions of it.

The compact wouldnt allow a Balor to just pop into a peaceful elohim village and start killing people. If Agares had enough influence in the area, people commited to him, dark rites performed, his taint spread throughout the area, then at some point a Balor could be dropped into there.

Hyborem, in the D&D games, walked that line carefully. The ashen veil religion is a religion of slow corruption, of converting people from the protected to the vulnerable and corrupting creation. It starts with small things, and grows into more.

The same holds in reverse. A man loyal to Sirona may be completly immune to the corruption of Agares. His faith may allow Sirona enough influence to protect him and perform some miracles through him. I never worked up the details of the compact, btu one would assuem that it would outlaw Agares reachign through and killing the high priest of the Empyrean but one would assume if Agares wanted to reach out and kill his own High Priest it wouldnt be a problem. The difference is in the power men have given the gods over themselves.

The Forgotten realms has the concept of the gods gain and lose power based on their worshippers. That isnt the way it works in Erebus. The gods never become more or less powerful. But the compact does restrain their ability to act in creation based on men. So the net effect is similiar.

I also assumed that the gods influence was finite, just like magic. So that some gods preferred a single flashy effect (making a volcano explode) and others preferred smaller but more of their effects (like healing a bunch of people). So even in an area with perfect faith the amount of the gods influence is still limited.

 

[BugReportage]

So it's unflavoury for me to send Hybo and a stack of champions and catapults out and ransack Bannor about 30 turns after he spawns when no hell terrain has even spread yet?
But if my target was the Ashen Veil capital or some other unholy Ashen Veily place that's okay?
(That's interesting because the first thing an Infernal wants to do is kill an evil civilization to stock up on manes)

Anyways another quick question: Why can the Infernals corrupt evil souls? Even if they worship another evil god and not Agares. Why can they corrupt neutral souls? Is that more to make the Infernals interesting to play as? And if they can corrupt souls that don't belong to Agares (including neutral souls), why can't Agares corrupt "good" souls? If I were Mammon and Agares just stole my worshiper, I'd be pretty pissed. He IS the embodiment of greed after all.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Odio didn't break the compact, he broke the truce that was called in order for the gods to meet to negotiate the peace treaty. The Compact hadn't been written, much less signed, yet. Kilmorph demanded that Aeron withdraw his ara from him, which would presumably be a restriction that the Compact would latter place on those who broke the actual compact.

Cassiel, Basium, and Sphenor are mortal now. They are however mortal in the way that Kyorlin in mortal, not vulnerable to old age.




Hmm...I just started thinking that it would be pretty cool and appropriate for the Hyborem unit itself to be much stronger, but not able to enter any terrain but hell terrain. He would of course be free to move in his territory, and in any lands corrupted by his evil. It would probably be a good idea to let hel spread to good terrain at high AC, or to let evil spells/units with pyPerTurn effects be able to raise their plots plot counter.

 

[BugReportage]

I too was thinking that, why should Hybo be free to walk into Bannor and kill everyone? I was thinking about Kael's example about the Balor.

 

[Kael]

Yes, having hyborem limited to hell terrain or extremly influenced in power by the terrain would fit more with the lore. But it wouldnt be as much fun. Making the infernal a turtle civ instead of warmongers doesnt work well for the mod. Even if trying to convert and corrupt neighbors so that you can then come in and rule them is more flavorful.

 

[BugReportage]

I think in the final versions of this game there's going to be two counters:
Armegeddon and Compact counters.

As the compact counter increases it will get closer to a second Gods War.
As more good or evil cities are razed or if more otherworldly beings like Hyborem get summoned the counter will grow higher. And if an angel actually steps into creation this doesn't immediately break the compact. Perhaps it just dramatically increases the Compact's counter (Mulcarn entering creation the first time didn't make a new Gods War)

It's like the Cold War with a DEFCON counter.
But maybe that'd just break the end game more than it already is.

 

[Mailbox]

Anyways another quick question: Why can the Infernals corrupt evil souls? Even if they worship another evil god and not Agares. Why can they corrupt neutral souls? Is that more to make the Infernals interesting to play as? And if they can corrupt souls that don't belong to Agares (including neutral souls), why can't Agares corrupt "good" souls? If I were Mammon and Agares just stole my worshiper, I'd be pretty pissed. He IS the embodiment of greed after all.

The seven hells are designed so that souls are supposed to get more evil and go lower, starting in the hell of their particular god. Manes are the end result of that process.

 

[zup]

And most souls start in Mammon's hell. How greedy must one be to go there? A single selfish act -- make it a thought -- in one's lifetime? Sounds like that's where everybody goes unless they are so depraved they skip it in the first place.

What does it take to go straight to Agares anyway?

 

[merciary]

Being a worshiper of the Veil would probably take you straight to Agares.

 

[Fenboy]

Tebryn was personally collected by Agares, according to the 'pedia. Of course, what he was doing back then is known only to Kael and the rest of his D&D group from the time
All I've heard is he was an NPC of some sort.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

By Agares? I don't think so. I beleive his soul was taken by Hyborem, and then claimed by Ceridwen.


Actually, I believe that Ram the Amurite Archmage was a player's character. After the other players failed to stop him from dieing he returned as their nemesis Tebryn Arbandi. This was a separate campaign set centuries later and where the players were in different characters, but the players were the same as the ones who had played with Ram earlier.

Orthus was also a player's character.

 

[Atnanor]

Orthus was also a player's character.

Wow, and I just thought he was a random guy. How bout that .

 

[Indagator]

Actually, I believe that Ram the Amurite Archmage was a player's character. After the other players failed to stop him from dieing he returned as their nemesis Tebryn Arbandi. This was a separate campaign set centuries later and where the players were in different characters, but the players were the same as the ones who had played with Ram earlier.

If I correctly remember what Kael wrote, the caster was collected because he had sold his soul for some reason or another (power, maybe?). Also, I don't think the next campaign took place centuries later, because during the next campaign an old NPC mentored the player characters, and was eventually revealed to be one of the characters who was supposed to be protecting Ram when he was assassinated.