Do the leaders look historically accurate?

[Hellenism Salesman]

I know that YouTube or Instagram comments are far from representative of the general opinion, let alone the opinion of Civfanatics from this forum, but there seems to be A LOT of backlash on Simón Bolívar's First Look videos regarding his leader model. People, apparently from Latin American, seem to think that he doesn't look neither iconic nor recognisable enough. Some have even claimed that he looks like El Zorro and not like the actual Simón Bolívar we all know and "love".

That's honestly very nice to see! The design is so strange and problematic that I was able to hold conversations about it with my non-Civ-playing friend. It doesn't take an expert to see what's wrong.

It's such a bizarre turn of events, seeing as the skeleton crew of VI's New Frontier Pass was able to nail him. He's... not exactly the hardest design, and he's pretty distinct among the cast. Did they want him to look less like Napoleon and Lafayette? Start by making his sideburns end in the right spot

As for the El Zorro comparison, I can see it.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Ah, I can't just contain my thoughts to one post. This tackles his design from an artistic angle rather than a historical one, so I figure there's some merit to having them separate.

As many of us have pointed out, he's romanticized to be handsome, downright sexy (his wide open uniform is the biggest tell). From a costuming perspective, that sort of makes sense. If you want to make a sexy male leader, picking a national hero- one who is often mythologized into a larger than life debonair figure- isn't a terrible choice.

But I'd argue it's not a good one, either! If we want a better casting choice, go for Augustus or Xerxes. Both of these men have been heavily mythologized and romanticized (or demonized, in the case of the Persian ) to the point where we almost expect their designs to be exaggerated. The artists really had free reign to make them big and buff and idealize the heck out of their features. With Xerxes you get to give him a big beard and magnificent hair- it's a win-win, really.

But I'm not done. There are better historical choices, and there are also better character choices. Take Ibn Battuta, who is portrayed in-game as a charming, smooth-talking storyteller. Does that not perfectly fit the personality of our token sexy man?

I get it- one of the easiest things to do with dead people is to idealize them. Sometimes that means making them attractive. And while that's fun, the choice to do it to this dead man, in this way, coupled with other character design choices, result in something that (to me) feels very forced.

So, yeah. Pick your sexy men wisely.

 

[untitledjuan]

I think Bolivar looks great

His contemporaries and some of the artists that new him from life had a rather opposite opinion of his real life appearance. (Though the degree to which those historical accounts and commentaries detailing his bad looks are politically motivated or not, is something that Colombian historians are still debating).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To comment on the last two posts together:

Great Men (or Women) in history tend to be, most frequently, those at the top of the pecking order - or near enough as makes no difference. With the best access to health care and diet - however bad it may have been by modern standards - they are going to look generally better than average - luck of genetics plus best care.

In addition, as I have posted elsewhere, before photography ALL great peole's portraits are subject to Editing. Either because the subject had distinct ideas about how they wanted to be remembered and depicted (Augustus, Elizabeth I of England for two prime examples) or because they became Icons after or during their lives and their Image was idealized accordingly (Xerxes, among many others).

OR, of course, they could also be on the wrong end of history and become Demonized after their time so that their image is equally manipulated but in the opposite direction for the opposite results.

All of which means Leader graphics are completely Malleable, and the results speak more to the game designers' views or desires than any original image, even if all the Leaders HAD accurate original images, which most don't.

 

[untitledjuan]

I can understand it when the leaders are more of a caricature that stresses a specific association with the leader‘s personality. Then it makes sense to deviate a lot from information how someone looked. I don‘t see how this is the case with 7‘s Bolivar though.

I think they modified him to be somehow a caricature of the average Latin American/Hispanic revolutionary, specially to associate him in some way to the in-game Mexican civilization. The thing is, he wasn't a regular Hispanic revolutionary, he's the founding father of Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador, not of all of Hispanic America. He's a figure with an iconic status similar to George Washington's status in America (and, for both, arguably in the world). I think they failed in his representation when they began to project on him American stereotypes (caricatures, if you may) of what a Hispanic person, or a "Hispanic Revolutionary" for that matter, should be. Instead of portraying him as the particular individual that he was, they began adding onto him certain characteristics (such as making him "hot" or having him wear his uniform in such way or his hairstyle and facial hair, that are not commonly associated with the symbolic image that's in the mind of almost everybody in Northern South America.

That's like trying to make George Washington hot by having him have facial hair and remove his signature white wig/hair. At some points, it stops being the same historical symbol that everyone can recognise.

They can get away with doing that with leaders who are ancient, such as Xerxes or Gilgamesh, since their depictions and iconic nature isn't based on them being the almost literal personification of a nation, which is the case for people such as George Washington or Simón Bolívar.

 

[untitledjuan]

To comment on the last two posts together:

Great Men (or Women) in history tend to be, most frequently, those at the top of the pecking order - or near enough as makes no difference. With the best access to health care and diet - however bad it may have been by modern standards - they are going to look generally better than average - luck of genetics plus best care.

In addition, as I have posted elsewhere, before photography ALL great peole's portraits are subject to Editing. Either because the subject had distinct ideas about how they wanted to be remembered and depicted (Augustus, Elizabeth I of England for two prime examples) or because they became Icons after or during their lives and their Image was idealized accordingly (Xerxes, among many others).

OR, of course, they could also be on the wrong end of history and become Demonized after their time so that their image is equally manipulated but in the opposite direction for the opposite results.

All of which means Leader graphics are completely Malleable, and the results speak more to the game designers' views or desires than any original image, even if all the Leaders HAD accurate original images, which most don't.

I completely agree with you and it completely happens with Bolívar, who was highly idolised after his death and whose post-mortem portraits during the late 19th century depict him almost as a Roman emperor. However, since his death, up to the present, Bolívar (or, should I say, his image) has acquired certain figures, attributes and icons that, regardless of whether they were historically accurate or not, have become a staple in the minds of Colombian, Venezuelans, etc. that make him instantly recognisable by almost everyone in those countries. Sure, probably most of those physical (and even moral) characteristics that people associate with him might not even be historically accurate, but they've become symbols even of national identity. However, if the in-game portrayal failed to reflect those elements that make him recognisable (regardless of actual historicity) to most people, then that's were the problem starts. They seem to have favoured their own perception of the historical figure (and of his historical period) than the one that Colombian or Venezuelans have had of him for 200 years.

If we were to follow the historical portrayals and descriptions made of him when he was actually alive, then we would end up with a rather not very good looking character, if we are to believe what his contemporaries wrote/drew about his appearance. Even those might be politically charged, so, in strictly historical terms, it really is hard to tell. But still, they could at least have followed the iconic image that most Colombians recognise and that features as a statue in the central public square of almost all cities in the country.

 

[notNamed]

I'd like to hear from people who have done research into Napoleonic era uniforms.

The uniform in-game seems to suggest he had a large red piece of fabric attached in the front, separate from the rest of the uniform and keeping it in place via those buttons.
Shouldn't these, however, simply be decorative lapels on the coat itself with purely decorative buttons? As far as I could find, these sorts of uniforms are kept together with small hooks or perhaps another line of buttons hidden by the fabric and people who draw him with no apparent split down the middle (or straight up folded on one side as Civ7 did) are indeed misinterpreting how the fashion of the time worked. Even if it's a relatively minor historical accuracy error, all things concerned.

Moderator Action: Removed some text to keep it forum friendly-AH

 

[Giskler]

She's wearing an Old Kingdom-style sheath dress--which is very accurate but about a thousand years out of fashion for Hatshepsut, like putting Napoleon in a toga. Her hair seems very off, starting with the fact that a woman of her stature would shave her head and wear a jeweled wig. And I'm not sure if that rag on her head is even supposed to be a nemes crown; if it is...it's awful. That's not what a nemes crown looks like or how you wear it!

Is this closer to what she should look like?

 

[Siptah]

View attachment 727071
Is this closer to what she should look like?

I think that wig and nemes on top isn't common. I'm not sure I've ever seen it to be honest. Either you wear a wig or you wear a nemes. The nemes is also wrong, as it is much longer.
I'd think she would wear white linen, and not brownish. Noble women usually wore white (semi-transparent) linen in her time.
The bead necklace is realistic for the time (or almost any), but I'd also think that as pharaoh, she might wear something more elaborate.

This looks like it's from civ 7. The Nebet great person? For them, this would be fine, aside from the nemes and the brown instead of white cloth.

 

[Giskler]

I think that wig and nemes on top isn't common. I'm not sure I've ever seen it to be honest. Either you wear a wig or you wear a nemes. The nemes is also wrong, as it is much longer.
I'd think she would wear white linen, and not brownish. Noble women usually wore white (semi-transparent) linen in her time.
The bead necklace is realistic for the time (or almost any), but I'd also think that as pharaoh, she might wear something more elaborate.

This looks like it's from civ 7. The Nebet great person? For them, this would be fine, aside from the nemes and the brown instead of white cloth.

It's a modified image of Hatshepsut's model.

 

[Giskler]

I think that wig and nemes on top isn't common. I'm not sure I've ever seen it to be honest. Either you wear a wig or you wear a nemes. The nemes is also wrong, as it is much longer.
I'd think she would wear white linen, and not brownish. Noble women usually wore white (semi-transparent) linen in her time.
The bead necklace is realistic for the time (or almost any), but I'd also think that as pharaoh, she might wear something more elaborate.

This looks like it's from civ 7. The Nebet great person? For them, this would be fine, aside from the nemes and the brown instead of white cloth.

So, more like this?

 

[Siptah]

View attachment 727072
So, more like this?

Indeed for the head gear. I'm not sure what that upper arm bracelet is though ^^

I think the dress is still too simple and plain though. I would go with something like this, although it is from almost two centuries later (Queen Nefertari from the 19th dynasty).

 

[Giskler]

Indeed for the head gear. I'm not sure what that upper arm bracelet is though ^^

I think the dress is still too simple and plain though. I would go with something like this, although it is from a century later (Queen Nefertari from the 19th dynasty).
View attachment 727073

The AI sometimes adds random things lol

 

[Giskler]

Indeed for the head gear. I'm not sure what that upper arm bracelet is though ^^

I think the dress is still too simple and plain though. I would go with something like this, although it is from almost two centuries later (Queen Nefertari from the 19th dynasty).
View attachment 727073

A couple versions for you there.

 

[Siptah]

View attachment 727075View attachment 727076
A couple versions for you there.

I like how the person inside the clothes changes completely every time
I think the left one with a semi-transparent stole over the shoulders and arms could work. But if you tell this to the AI, it might do a christian priest. The left person also looks much more Egyptian (at least a southern one like Hatshepsut), the right one would barely fit the delta.

I'm curious if the way the red belt cloth is worn and knotted into the dress is actually physically possible? Or does it require her hand to be exactly where it is to hold it?

 

[Giskler]

I like how the person inside the clothes changes completely every time
I think the left one with a semi-transparent stole over the shoulders and arms could work. But if you tell this to the AI, it might do a christian priest. The left person also looks much more Egyptian (at least a southern one like Hatshepsut), the right one would barely fit the delta.

I'm curious if the way the red belt cloth is worn and knotted into the dress is actually physically possible? Or does it require her hand to be exactly where it is to hold it?

Nah, the belt is janky, sometimes it comes out like that. As for the person, it's probably because I've not told it any characteristics for that. It doesn't like doing semi-transparent dresses, apparently that's too pornographic for it

 

[Giskler]

I like how the person inside the clothes changes completely every time
I think the left one with a semi-transparent stole over the shoulders and arms could work. But if you tell this to the AI, it might do a christian priest. The left person also looks much more Egyptian (at least a southern one like Hatshepsut), the right one would barely fit the delta.

I'm curious if the way the red belt cloth is worn and knotted into the dress is actually physically possible? Or does it require her hand to be exactly where it is to hold it?

Added the stole.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

In addition, as I have posted elsewhere, before photography ALL great peole's portraits are subject to Editing. Either because the subject had distinct ideas about how they wanted to be remembered and depicted (Augustus, Elizabeth I of England for two prime examples)

It could also be said that we know how they would want to look in a video game if they could be asked. Would Benjamin Franklin want to be portrayed as an old man?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It could also be said that we know how they would want to look in a video game if they could be asked. Would Benjamin Franklin want to be portrayed as an old man?

RE Franklin, not sure. I don't know if he ever expressed an opinion about his appearance, or if anyone ever recorded it.

But for many Leaders, we do have their opinion, either directly expressed or indirectly in the way they insisted on being portrayed - and some, by the way, preferred (or at least approved) of themselves portrayed as they really were 'warts and all' (a phrase attributed to a leader not in the game [yet], Oliver Cromwell in his instructions to a court painter trying to picture him).

To some extent and in some specific instances, at least, Civ VII is following 'the leader's choice' in their depictions of the Leaders: Augustus' unnatural and perennial youthfulness for a good example. Of course, most of the Leaders being fairly famous (at least in their own countries) Great People, many have 'accepted' depictions or likenesses already which may bear no relationship to their actual appearance, or the appearance of anybody else in their society at their time.

That gives Civ VII (or any other game) the thankless task of finding a graphic depiction that will appeal to everybody, which is flatly impossible.

 

[Sagax]

That gives Civ VII (or any other game) the thankless task of finding a graphic depiction that will appeal to everybody, which is flatly impossible.

I don’t think “appealing to everybody” should be a goal here to begin with, or perhaps we need to be more specific about what we define as “appealing”. Is it good looks that drive hotness tier lists? Is it the overall art direction? Is it accuracy and recognition? Or is it all of the above, but then what takes priority?

IMO the starting rule for a grounded history-themed game like Civ should be “go for a depiction that will first appeal to the part of your audience that the leader is supposed to represent/celebrate” - and then take liberties one step at a time, based on how hard it is to adequately follow the rule. I’d say that a leader with an established iconic appearance and symbolism in the minds of a sizable regional audience is not really a good ground for flexing creative muscles and defending with “well, actually, all depictions are biased and inaccurate”.

It’s strange to see them both nail it with Rizal and drop the ball with Bolivar.