Brennus/Carth. UU: what's the point?

[jimbob27]

The Numidian cavalry are excellent units. I'm playing with carthage on the rhye's world map, and they're fantastic. Give them the remaining flanking promotion and then combat 1, and you rarely loose a unit, even when attacking heavily fortified cities without catapults. They either win, or they withdraw.

 

[PMabey]

numidian cavalry are not good against any units , there is no reason to want to use them above regular horse archers or any other classical units
1. vs. axemen. numidian cavalry will easily beat them but chariots are better. (8 vs 5 compared to 7.5 vs 5)
2. vs. swordsman. axemen are just as likely to beat swordsman and you get them quicker
3. vs. spearmen. axemen are much better
4. vs horse archer. not good they'll lose against them most of the time.
5. vs archers. i'd prfer a normal horse archer
6. vs catapults. I'd prefer a normal horse archer

I dont even like regular horse archers either.
Its annoying cos everything else about carthage i like.
btw look at the conquistador. it has 50% vs melee units but it does NOT suffer a drop in strength. The free flanking promotion is nice but it doesnt make up for the drop of strength

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

^You forgot their free Flanking promotion. I personally think they're a very effective unit, courtesy of charismatic. They come out of the box with 5 exp and Flanking 1. I also think have a very sizable withdrawal chance, because in my entire war with China, I lost but two of 6 or so Numidians, even when the odds were against them, because they simply withdrew from combat. They aren't meant to be shock troops IMO, they're meant to go in after the cats and pick off or at least weaken tough defenders, and they fair very well against weakened spearmen and axes and don't suffer first strikes from archers. They fill many roles and often make it out alive...what's not to like?

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Hmm, so it's going to be a Numidian Cavalry rush then

Its not as strong as war chariot or praet rush. Spearmen still are effective against you, as are impi and phalanx. Plus I still needed swordsmen to deal with pesky archers, as well as spearmen to fight off horse archers.

So basically you still need a mix (somewhere Firaxis is smiling).

 

[Innawerkz]

numidian cavalry are not good against any units , there is no reason to want to use them above regular horse archers or any other classical units
1. vs. axeman. numidian cavalry will easily beat them but chariots are better. (8 vs 5 compared to 7.5 vs 5)
2. vs. swordsman. axeman are just as likely to beat swordsman and you get them quicker
3. vs. spearmen. axemen are much better
4. vs horse archer. not good they'll lose against them most of the time.
5. vs archers. i'd prfer a normal horse archer
6. vs catapults. I'd prefer a normal horse archer

Like dh_epic said: They are for a different function than attacking cities. I see you are slanted toward the Axeman, but what was overlooked is that this one-single unit can kill all of those units listed often (except HA) AND has 2 movement. Anything they don't kill allows retreating as a bonus. Not shabby for a choke unit.

btw look at the conquistador. it has 50% vs melee units but it does NOT suffer a drop in strength. The free flanking promotion is nice but it doesnt make up for the drop of strength

This is my favorite UU. Best reason I can think of for no strength drop is that Isabelle isn't Charismatic.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Re: Gallic warrior. I think it would be better off just to make it have +20% hills attack or something, without the Guerilla I promo, the dun can give you that.
Off-Topic: With UBs it seems like they just went through all the buildings in the game and used them all up for all the Civs. IIRC there isn't 1 type of building that has been used twice.

 

[Enkidu_Warrior]

I'd rather they combined the guerilla and woodsman promotions. Either line is too specialised, except early on when you want scouts to have woodsman for exploring. Otherwise, you're generally better off with any other promotion.

Combining them would extend the specialism enough to be worth it.

EW

 

[Sparta]

I'd rather they combined the guerilla and woodsman promotions. Either line is too specialised, except early on when you want scouts to have woodsman for exploring. Otherwise, you're generally better off with any other promotion.

Combining them would extend the specialism enough to be worth it.

EW

I agree, FWIW. I can understand wanting them separate for flavor, but as standalones they are just not valuable enough to warrant choosing them over other more powerful or useful promotions.

I'm wrapping up a game as the Celts right now, and am playing them in the big OT match that just started (loyalty to heritage over strategic choice I guess), but I'm really struggling to find a way to make good use out of their UU and UB (outside of highly biased highlands maps I suppose). Guerilla III just adds 25% to attacking hills, but being that the typical worthwhile hills target (outside of the rare take-at-any-cost resource location) is a city, CRII can be had at the same level and yields almost twice the benefit. I'd even made a couple Guerilla III 'highlander' units to try to leverage the trait, but they were quickly relegated to accompanying roles as my city raiders were both more potent and more worthy of added experience. (Furthermore, IMO, raising a taskforce of fast GII warriors seems to have extremely limited potential as well, since available opportunities (hill-chain paths to cities) are few and far between, and losses will be quite high by the time you can raise such a force simply due to cultural defenses.)

I'm not sure what the solution is (I like Krikkitone's suggestions, but it may be a hard sell to the other 14 players at this point ), but at the current stage I think the Celtic UU or UB could really use some tweaking. Neither seems to add much of a relevant benefit at all to standard gameplay in their current forms.

 

[BigBadBear]

I'd rather they combined the guerilla and woodsman promotions. Either line is too specialised, except early on when you want scouts to have woodsman for exploring. Otherwise, you're generally better off with any other promotion.

Combining them would extend the specialism enough to be worth it.

EW

If you combine the guerilla and woodsman bonusses... wouldn't that just make the explorer kind of obsolete?

 

[Lord Parkin]

Well what they really need to do for the Celts to be worthwhile is to revamp Guerilla (to make It worthwhile) [and apply the same thing to Woodsman]

I
+25% Defense
+10% Offense

II
+15% Defense
+15% Offense
Movement bonus

III
+10% Defense
+25% Offense

That would make it very useful (even though it is very limited)
[plus the Jag could be made more Generically acceptable by giving it Free Woodsman I instead of the Jungle Bonus]

One thing though. That would make a Guerilla III unit more powerful when attacking a city on a hill, than when attacking one on flat ground. Are you sure that's the effect you want?

 

[HalfBadger]

In Civ 3 the Celts were one of my Fave civs, so I was excited to play them in CIv 4, however it is frustrating that their UU and UB are kinda lame, especially since they don't 'stack'.

I rarely/never build Walls nor do I ever really give my units the Guerilla promotions, so it's like 2 near useless things. At least the Castle for the Spanish give a somewhat useful ability.

Those defending either the Dun or Gaelic Swordsman's ability, how often do you give your units the Guerilla promotion?

An extra movement like in Civ 3 or somehting like that would be cool, but a UU and UB giving the same not stacked, rarely used unit promotion.... is very frustrating.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Now there's an idea. Giving the Gallic Warrior both Guerilla I and II would probably make a much more balanced and overall decent UU. The Dun doesn't even need to be modified at all in that case.

 

[Enkidu_Warrior]

If you combine the guerilla and woodsman bonusses... wouldn't that just make the explorer kind of obsolete?

I probably wasn't clear in what I meant.

Guerilla I gives 20% (i think) defense in hills
Woodsman I gives 20% defense in forest/jungle

the combined Guer-wood I would give 20% defense in hills/forest/jungle

etc.

EW

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

numidian cavalry are not good against any units , there is no reason to want to use them above regular horse archers or any other classical units
1. vs. axemen. numidian cavalry will easily beat them but chariots are better. (8 vs 5 compared to 7.5 vs 5)
2. vs. swordsman. axemen are just as likely to beat swordsman and you get them quicker
3. vs. spearmen. axemen are much better
4. vs horse archer. not good they'll lose against them most of the time.
5. vs archers. i'd prfer a normal horse archer
6. vs catapults. I'd prefer a normal horse archer

This would be a valid argument if you never encountered more than one unit at a time. Then you would just pick the most appropriate attacker to maximize your odds, and you'd never use the numidian cavalry for anything. In practice, since the best defender is always selected, it's much more useful to look at the worst possible odds a unit gets when attacking instead of the best.

What if you're attacking a chariot, an axeman, and a spearman stacked together? Your axeman gets trampled by the chariot (8 vs. 5). Your swordsman is chopped to bits by the axeman (7.5 vs. 6). Your normal horseman is impaled by the spearman (8 vs. 6). The numidian cavalry, on the other hand, will fight the spearman at 7.5 vs 8 with a 30% chance of withdrawal if he loses. True, he's still probably only getting about 40% victory odds, but that's substantially better than any of your other options. Give him a shock promotion, and the numbers swing in the other direction.

The numidian cavalry isn't a great unique unit, but it doesn't suck. It's OK. Not the best, not the worst, and that's exactly how it should be, because ...

Its annoying cos everything else about carthage i like.

... and you've just answered your own question. This is the best reason of all not to make numidian cavalry better. Carthage with a more powerful unique unit would be ridiculous. You'd never play any other leader. Do you really feel so handicapped by Charismatic, Financial, and +1 trade routes from harbors that you also need a kickass unique unit before the leader is playable?

 

[Lord Parkin]

Actually, due to the odd way the combat system works, the Numidian Cavalry doesn't fight the Spear at 7.5 vs 8. It fights at 5 vs 6, which is slightly worse odds gamewise. (Numidian Cavalry gets no bonus, Spear gets +100%, -50% = +50% bonus.)

You're right though that Hannibal is a kick-ass leader in all other respects. There is no need for a stunning UU (in fact it would be downright unfair and unbalancing).

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Actually, due to the odd way the combat system works, the Numidian Cavalry doesn't fight the Spear at 7.5 vs 8. It fights at 5 vs 6, which is slightly worse odds gamewise. (Numidian Cavalry gets no bonus, Spear gets +100%, -50% = +50% bonus.)

I knew I was probably doing that wrong , but the real point is that the Numidian Cavalry has better odds than any of the alternatives, which I think is still true. Also, the Shock promotion would still swing the odds to slightly in the Numidian's favor. If we assume an even playing field with 2 promotions each for the Numidian Cavalry (Combat I and Shock) and the spearman (Combat I and II), I think that works out to 5.5 vs. 5.4 and still a 30% chance of retreat.

The value of the Numidian Cavalry isn't that it's great against any particular unit but rather that it isn't terrible against anything. In that respect it's not unlike axemen in Civ IV Classic.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

I think the Celtic UU or UB could really use some tweaking. Neither seems to add much of a relevant benefit at all to standard gameplay in their current forms

Im currently playing a Celt game and I gotta echo everyone else. The UU never really came into play...axemen still make more then a match for them, and the hills really are situational. The dun I think is my least favorite UB, right there with the Mall. All of this is a shame because I think Spiritual and Charismatic are two of the best traits in the game and are very powerful together. I think they might make up for the UU and UB...but for me, and I know this is silly, but some of the fun of choosing a leader is getting to use the UU and UB and when they both suck, its just not as much fun for me, even when I love Brennus' traits.



EDIT: To my surprise I found out that Guerilla promotion does not go on every unit built in a city that has the Dun. I believe the text when you hold your mouse over the Dun says that it gives the promotion to the units that "qualify". The only unit I've built that got the free promotion...crossbowmen.

Units that didnt get the promotion:
All mounted units (including War elephants and Chariots)
Axemen (fairly sure about this)
Spearmen
Pikemen
Macemen
Mustketmen
Riflemen
Siege units

Can anyone else fill in this list either way?

This drops the Dun much much more in my book. I mean...whats the point? So I can get a Guerilla promotion on certain units, but not most of those "offensive" units. Its extremely underpowered compared to some of the other UBs (same for their UU).

 

[Enkidu_Warrior]

Crossbowmen are reasonable garrison units. They're a solid counter to axe/swords, making them good support for longbowmen. If I'm remembering correctly, they're also slightly cheaper than axes (the earlier-age counter to axes).

Still, a guerilla promotion for a garrison unit is pretty pointless - unless you happen to have lots of hills in your area and want to park troops to hold the high ground (or counter invaders).

Further, I have to really question the free promotions for Protective. In my last game, I went overboard on First Strike promotions just to see how much of an impact they made, and was summarily underwhelmed.

First strikes, as I understand, were weakened during testing due to being a bit too powerful. Since the tweak to reduce the impact of HP on combat odds, I think first strikes need to be tweaked back up.

EW

 

[snipafist]

The dun only gives guerilla to units that could select the promotion in the first place, so it gives it to ranged units and gunpowder units until it becomes obsolete later. It's quite a useless unique building to match a quite useless unique unit. It's a good thing the traits are good and the city music is the best in the game, or there would be no reason to play the Celts at all.

 

[PMabey]

@ Dr Elmer Jiggle. Yeah i realised your point after i wrote the thread. I still play carthage... sometimes and i guess they would be overpowered if the numidian cavalry was amazing