Bribe Wars: A Discussion

D

Dogberry_Old

****** of the Pack
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As our TOT IP games progress ..this is going to become a hot topic. I haven't used bribing as a tactic much yet.. altho I did use it occasionally against the AI, way back when ( so much more fun just to beat AIs militarily ). I hope that the more experienced MP players will chime in with their observations. A lot of what I am going to do will be heavy on theory & short on actual experience.

I am going to do this in 3 parts:
  • Historical Observations
  • Defending against.. both in terms of units & cities
  • Formulas
I hope these will be mostly correct as I had to dig though & into my old Civ2 Classic material to get them.

These things can be so important that some players suggest "house rules" to deal with them. I dislike "house rules" unless they are an extremely simple & elegant solution to a very egregious..eg."sticks out like a sore thumb".. problem. So, in a way, this is a pre-emptive strike against them.

Keep in mind, that what we are talking about is Test of Time & what I refer to as True Multiplayer that is, 3 and preferably 4 or 5 players. I suspect that the duelers will have some appropriate things to say on this subject though.

Dog
 
"sticks out like a sore thumb"

Thats exactly what city bribing does.You wouldn't find me in any game that allowed it.Dip wars are extremely unrealistic and boring.It should be disallowed.
 
Historical Observations..

I believe it was Phillip of Macedon who said that the best way to take a city was " a donkey loaded with gold ". In the Punic Wars Masilla ( present day Marseilles ) changed sides a number of times, largely as a result of "bribery" .. as did Syracuse.. and a number of other cities in Spain & the eastern Mediterrean. I am sure you could go back even further & find many more examples of this.

During the later Medievel & early Renaisance ..this was the preferred method of conflict as Venice, Genoa & the Ottoman Empire stove for dominance in the Mediterrean Basin .. along with Spain..the Dutch & many others. I do not doubt that you could find examples from China, India & elsewhere of this kind of conflict.."Bribe Wars".

Fast forward to the present.. in the Age of Globalisation & giant Corporate Economies. Where Poland, Hungary & others are being weaned from Russia ... again due to what could be called "Bribe Wars". It is easy to point out the many times that invaders..putative enemies & others have been won over, or nuetralised with "gifts".

The only time when "Bribe Wars" does not work well in History is when there are stong national, religious or ideological feelings. The two World Wars are good example of this. Abstract concepts such as "National Feeling" are admittedly portrayed poorly in the game.. aside from the form of government & a nod to "happiness" or lack thereof in the general population.

I would say the only true measurement of "National Feeling" is you the player.. your skills.. your persistance... your determination.

Why then the calls of "unrealistic" from many players..? I can think of 3 reasons: 1) we are living in the afterglow of World Wars 1 & 2 ..surely the epitome of wars of Nations against Nations, 2) The way history is written... campaigns & battles are much more glamourous.. while bribes ARE rather mundane, . & 3) the way it is done in the game.. that is, it is usually a much more complex thing in reality than just running a guy up to a city & saying " come on over to our side.. we will pay you such & such ".

However as the world becomes more regionalistic..nations become less national..& everybody focuses on their particular interests.. I am willing to bet that we & our children will see much more of this sort of thing.

"Bribe Wars" are alive in Africa.. middle Asia.. and many other parts of the world. I assure you.

Dog

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited May 06, 2001).]
 
Mark me down as not a fan of bribing in the game.
I can deal with it, but prefer to not.

I agree with you in many regards, save one.
I don't believe an entire city of any size will be bribed into submission in the United States. Ever.

I started to stipulate, any city of consequence, such as New York (or Dallas<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gif" border=0>),
then realize the attempt at smaller cities would also be in vain.
It seems smaller communities have more complete national pride than larger ones.

Times passes, and circumstances evolve.
I don't seem them evolving to that point here, unless there is a total collapse in all things we now know.

If it does come to pass, I'll still not be a fan of overuse of diplomats in Civ. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gif" border=0>


------------------
It's In The Way That You Use It

Tuatha De Danann Tribe
ICQ 51553293

[This message has been edited by SlowwHand (edited May 06, 2001).]
 
Bribing is for cowards. Part of the game or not, using those little bastards is a sissy way to win a battle.

I have little to no respect for opponents that use such cowardly tactics............

But thats just me.
 
Drake..bribing is for sissies ? Hunh...I don't care if you don't respect me..if your side is dead & out of the game. After all, "all's fair in love & war"!

I think this lays aside the cries of " unrealistic" & "not historical" . Insofar as " too strong " or "unbalances the game"..I remain unconvinced.

The reason that I dislike House Rules is that they are too often " I don't understand this.. so let's play this way" or even more often " let's change the rules, so I win " parading around in disguise.

I do recognise that this function IS so powerful.. that a player needs to find ways to defend against it. That is why in the next set of sections.. I intend to go into this. I have the notes ready for the first part.. but I am busy enough that it will be a week or two before I get to it.

If you use your imagination & allow for a degree of abstaction in the game.. you could easily think that Dip represents not just someone with a suitcase full of money.. but a delegation or two of businessmen & government officials with loans, grants & technical assistance to win influence .. etc; especially in the more modern eras.

Sloww.. since in game terms, the USA would be considered a tremendously rich, stable Democracy .. I doubt if anyone is going to "bribe" us anytime soon.


Sometimes I am not sure about Texas though.

Dog
 
Drake..bribing is for sissies ? Hunh...I don't care if you don't respect me..if your side is dead & out of the game. After all, "all's fair in love & war"!
Click to expand...

I can win a game without bribing a single unit or city. I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they used bribing in their game, but it's a tactic that requires very little skill and it's high atop my personal annoying list of things my opponent can do.

It is so cowardly! Build a military and take the cities like a real man. Using dips and spies to buy things is the simple mans solution. It takes a much more complex mind to organize a sucessful military campaign. A well organized attack I can respect and am comfortable losing cities in that situation. But when someone just waltzes in with their pansy top hat wearing diplomat and "steals" my city, I cannot accept it very easily.

I like the sabotage type functions of these units, but bribing is just too cowardly for me to condone............

Its just my opinion and I know no one else cares...........
 
Texas won't be bribed, my good Dogberry.
Secession is a distinct possibility.
wink.gif


------------------
It's In The Way That You Use It

Tuatha De Danann Tribe
ICQ 51553293
 
Hello,
I'm a very peaceful gamer and win with the economic and intellectual power of my cities. I think, this ia a very civilisated way of wining. In online games some stupid boys thinks, they could conquer the world with knights or tanks. Those guys are very uncivilisated. They must not wonder that I will bribing all their attacking units. That is realistic, also is it realisticc to bribing the weak cities of someone who thinks, he can get the heaven with silly military units.
Play with me means: you will be buyed or you must be good!
----
Sorry for my bad English
 
Nice strategy Willi.

Use all the components of Civ 2 to it's fullest!!! Stick it to the man.
smile.gif


Question though......how do you play against Democracies?

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CivFanatics Moderator and Tech Support
CivFanatics Civ 2 Ladder
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.
 
You're right, bribing is very simple and it takes absolutely no skill, however it also is not a very good strategy. I will kill you if you try to bribe against me.
 
You're right, bribing is very simple and it takes absolutely no skill, however it also is not a very good strategy. I will kill you if you try to bribe against me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, what he said. Build your own military units you peace loving pansies
biggrin.gif
 
Originally posted by EyesOfNight:
You're right, bribing is very simple and it takes absolutely no skill, however it also is not a very good strategy. I will kill you if you try to bribe against me.
Click to expand...

and how would you do that Eyes? Last time we played, i bribed 1 of your cities and you cowardly surrendered because of it. I dont think you have so much defense against bribing at all.
 
"and how would you do that Eyes? Last time we played, i bribed 1 of your cities and you cowardly surrendered because of it. I dont think you have so much defense against bribing at all."

PLease, I already explained it to you. I spent that entire game trying to catch up. I finally did, but I was far too weak to defend against bribing. The game would have degenerated into a bribe war, it couldn't be stopped. I would rather have conceded 1 game to you that would have taken 6 hours or more (most likely more) and started another game. I could afford a loss to you, you only had 2 wins at that point so I wasn't too worried about you catching up anytime soon. Simply put, I had far more to gain by conceding 1 game so I could then play 6 games in the same amount of time. LEts see you try to win by bribing when you don't have 2 spices and a pheasant in your capital (among other things). Carnide gets his ass kicked every time and he's far better at bribing than you are. I just love the way you like to go by 1 game considering our couple of years of games before.
 
Some thoughts...

Crusaders vs. the much more agile & effective Saracens.
" God's Eyes ! If these Mongrels would only stand & fight like Men ! "

USA in Vietnam..
" If these damned Commies would only come out of the jungles & fight !"

Here's another thought..

"Those whom you would destroy..first make them mad"

and a couple of corollaries:

1) Punctuate your military campaigns with a few well chosen bribes.
2) Keep this capacity available to bully & terrorise aggressive but inflexible rivals.

Dog
 
Sorry that I have been so slow on this... too busy gaming..

Insofar as I know..there is no protection from a city bribe aside from it being your capital.. or you being a Democracy. You can only make it more or less easy or more or less hard, & more or less expensive.

In Test of Time ..in the Original Extended ( not available for MP ), the Fantasy Version, & the SciFi Version ; there are unbribable units which can make your city immune if they are in the garrison.

If anybody knows different, please say something !

The next section in a day or two.

Sloww... Nam: 16 months, Central Highlands - Pleiku, Kontum, LZ "Mile High", Chu Pong Mountains, An Khe, An Lao Valley ( a very evil place ) & Bon Son. III Corps - Di An, An Loc, War Zone C, & Xuan Loc.

yourself ?

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited May 16, 2001).]
 
Defending against Bribes..in General.

Here are some suggested ways to help to ward off bribing. These have more to do with cities than units.. but they all have some broad applicabilty.

1) Do not play x2 Movement -

x2 Movement just gives Dips & Spies to much mobility & you just can't see them coming. Throw in roads or railroads & your problems are multiplied. One can imagine a horde of them moving into the interior of a empire..bribing cities..while the main military offensive cracks the outer shell. Result ? In 3 or 4 turns..rival empire demolished & the game is likely won.

2 ) Don't play x2 Resources -

Even the more primitive governments can acquire large treasuries at this setting..plus you have the added problem of city riots because the population grows so quickly. Along with this.. watch the level that you are playing at... A Diety 2x2 game is just asking for a bribe fest.

3 ) Know your Neighbor (s) -

Is he or she a likely briber ? If so, where are your vulnerabilies ? What are the approach routes ? Are there Dips or Spies hovering about ? Be aware of the unique situation of coastal cities. Keep some reserves handy for a counterstrike or counter bribe. Establish an embassy ! Consider refusal of one.. a hostile act. If your neighbor does this.. you can put him or her in the very bad position of you having an embassy with them, yet they will not have one with you. Never underestimate the importance of information !

4 ) Don't run a Ramshackle Empire .. dammit !

This is a problem that I see among new players. Clusters of cities & singletons spread out all over the map.. lots of riots & a certain overall anarchy..coupled with poor communications between areas. This is just asking for it. A couple of bribes.. a reasonably sized military expedition & suddenly 4-5 cities go from your camp to mine..nothing you can do about it..except get steamed. If you run across an Advanced Tribe out in Bumf**k Eygpt.. do what you can to make it not "easy" & get what you can... but be willing to write it off. Think twice or three times about reinforcing.

5 ) Keep a Good Sized Treasury -

All of the bribing formulas involve the target's treasury. The larger the amount the more expensive the bribe. Plus money..being the most flexible of assets is fun to have around. Just having it there, lets the opponent know.. that the counter bribe is just around the corner.

6 ) Use Diplomacy as a Shield -

This is hard to do early in the game..& when the situation is still very much one-on-one, you are in the greatest danger. Still every hostile act ..especially bribing a city should have its consequences. Irregardless of whether you are the one to apply those consequences or not.

7 ) Be a Democracy ! -

This is the best overall guard against bribing..at the cost of strategic flexibilty. You need to be aware .. however, that more than one turn of Civil Disorder in any city & suddenly you are down there with the rest of the pack.. & quite possibly the least prepared for it.

Next time some stuff on units & military operations.

Dog

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited May 21, 2001).]
 
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