Bring my game to the next level

[Mr E]

I've been playing Civ2 MGE probably since it came out. And I do quite well, holding my own (vs cpu) at the emperor level (for reference) most of the time. I stuck with Civ2 until recently buying Civ5. Looking for tips in Civ5 originally brought me to this forum. Didn't think anyone was still playing Civ2, obviously I was wrong. Now I'm back hooked in Civ2 again. I've combed over much of the forums. I probably didn't know about 75% of the tricks and strategies mentioned here. Gameplay before civfanatics, and now after.

I have two questions. First are there any of those games hosted by a master going on right now? I would really love to get in on that. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but it looks like they get setup so someone who knows walks you through what they would do, is that right?

Second, I've been attempting for several different start maps now the STC and SSC strategies. In one map I did fair on an STC. I cannot seem to get the SSC strategy off the ground. I'm playing at king level to help it along. I get the right wonders early on, but then I throttle back the science and things fizzle. Sure the computer takes a century to invent the wheel but I cannot do much better then a dozen turns per tech. I've got to have a flaw in my application. I end up in solid control of the game but it feels like a race between dumb and dumber. Hoping around the world in trireme's in 1776 and having not even discovered the canon or RR. I suppose it would help if I mentioned my target SSC is Brandenburg.

I know we are all busy, would anyone be interested in commenting, or even better looking at this map I was working on? I attached it at a early, mid and later stages.
Thanks much in advance,

Eric

 

[Prof. Garfield]

First are there any of those games hosted by a master going on right now? I would really love to get in on that. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but it looks like they get setup so someone who knows walks you through what they would do, is that right?

If you mean succession games, head over to the "Stories and Tales" forum. The way a succession game works is that a player plays a set of turns (usually 10), posts a log of the turns, and uploads the game for the next player. Players also post notes about what they think should be done next, so there is frequently strategy discussion about a specific game. Our current game is a non-standard deity game being played in Classic Civ 2, so it may not be suitable for you to join at the moment (you would need to downgrade to classic anyway). There are plenty of old games (set the forum display to show posts from "The Beginning" -- default is only to show from the past year), although only relatively recent ones still have saved games attached. Note that any game that is played at "Deity plus X" or at "Barbarian Wrath" will require classic civ 2 to read the saves.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Your experience is typical. Many of us could beat the computer rivals at emperor and deity levels before discovering this site (or Apolyton) and thought we are masters of the game. Then found out that we are far from it. My recommendation is to join the Game of the months. It is how I and many others learned how to play the game well. We all play the same game and talk about our strategy and tactics while doing so. The current game, GOTM 121, is on going. GOTM 122 will be posted within a few days.

 

[Major Advantage]

Hi Mr. E!
From a quick look at your savegames, it appears to me that you have been missing out on a very crucial point: Get a new/better government ASAP! So your very first research priority should be Monarchy and when you have it, change your government on the next oedo-cycle. After that, you should go for Trade and Republic, since strong trade/science requires at least republic. Republic also lets your cities grow by one citizens when they are celebrating and have food surplus, so this is far more efficient than growing by filling up your food box.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I suggest that you play on larger maps this game is almost one large continent; caravan bonuses are increased 100% simply by dropping them off on another landmass.

You are doing far too much settler work; you should be building cities, then more cities, and more. You should do this until you run out of room or begin to suffer significant unhappiness problems. You will want a fairly substantial civ before you make terrain improvements. Your terrain improvements themselves are also odd. You should only build roads on forests or hills if they are needed to connect cities to the main road network; mines are usually a bad deal (they take too long), but if you must make mines, AT LEAST MAKE ONE ON YOUR COAL. You have two mines servicing Bonn, but you left the coal square un-mined; if you had mined that instead of one of the other hills, you would have gotten two extra shields per turn for free compared to the current situation. Several cities have multiple improved squares that they are not working; if a city is unable to work a square, it is worthless to improve it.

Sell the Dortmund city walls, the Bonn and Naples Marketplaces, and switch production in Salzburg to something useful. Unless you plan to make units to attack with, you won't need barracks either.

Brandenburg has too many mountains to be an effective SSC. There isn't an obvious stellar location, but a city site with some grassland and ocean can be used in a pinch (if you really want one).

I think you have misunderstood STC and SSC strategy.

To get the most out of an SSC you want to be running a high science rate; the science wonders don't help much if you have set your science rate low. Players have found that with proper use of caravans you can generate lots of science every turn; however the science generated from caravan deliveries can only be applied to the current technological research, so if your caravans produce enough science to more than fill the beaker box, the excess beakers are wasted. If you can generate enough revenue from caravans to fill the research box on most turns, it is better to lower your science rate to 10% or 0 (remembering to hire a scientist to trigger your advance) unless you want to try for multiple advances per turn. This action means that your SSC is worthless, so there is no point in spending 700 shields on Copernicus' and Newton's.

This is where the STC comes in. Sending caravans from your SSC was usually a particularly profitable endeavour, since the city generated so much base trade. Building a Super Trade City would basically get you this bonus, but spare you the expense of worthless science wonders. This strategy is particularly effective if you use caravan rehoming (a technique that is disallowed in GOTMs), since you can get much bigger delivery bonuses by rehoming all your caravans to the STC.

 

[Mr E]

Thank you everyone for the replies. I don't get to much time for gaming during the week. Now I've got lots things to try out.

Interestingly enough I thought I would try GOTM my way, and then when I read the most recent spoiler's and saw people were actually going on the offensive, that's when I knew I was licked. So I saw it, but I think it will be a couple more months before I'm ready for competition.

Prof Garfield, Major Adv, Ali, thanks for the many suggestions.

I got to Monarchy quickly, but hesitated when I got republic. Was doing JS Bach's next and thought I'd change once that was in place.

City improvements, Prof you are right. Over developed. I took the smaller map looking to run a quicker game while improving my game play strategy. It's a bumpy map to be certain. I picked Brandenburg's site because of the whales, and was hoping to get to a point to terraform the mountains later. I never really found anything better before I had to make some wonder commitments.

I also agree, I missed the SSC mark. I was not much of a trade person before these past couple weeks. I did think that somehow this wonder and trade combination allowed you to dup the computer into dropping their science to nothingness while I still took a tech a turn.

Also I'm trying to let go of old habits, I've read the post about marketplaces being worthless. I just don't get how to implement it so that's true. Marketplaces offer clean safe trade every turn. Getting a caravan to a larger, far away city is a many turn situation that could fail on many fronts (I'm still working on this whole gifting diplomacy thing to keep the cpu happy). I've also read about games where people are netting 10, 20, 30,000 gold a turn. That blows my mind right now. I think I am going to have to re-read some of these succession archives.

More questions out of this. About building cities and not worrying about improvements. Do you typically put a road between them, or just on your trade route/major thoroughfare? At what point does one flip flop, I've also read the posts about making sure superhighways, supermarket, etc are in place. So I'm confused about what the trigger here is?

I had previously done Pyramids first. I don't see a lot of talk about needing them. For the last couple of weeks I've been chasing techs that give HG, Colossus, Marco, Coper Ob, JS Bach, Leonardo's. In that order, and if something else came along I did it at my discretion. I realize each game is different but that seems to be stronger consensus for single player strategy? Yes?

Thanks,

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Also I'm trying to let go of old habits, I've read the post about marketplaces being worthless. I just don't get how to implement it so that's true. Marketplaces offer clean safe trade every turn.

My argument was not that all marketplaces are useless, but rather that there is usually something better to build. If we are thinking of the same thread, the question was a follow-up to why I had a superhighway before a bank. Your marketplaces (at least the ones I specifically told you to sell), however, are worthless, and at least one was outright hurting you every turn.

A city produces a certain amount of taxes each turn; these are displayed as gold coins in the city screen. To find out the value of a marketplace, divide that number by 2 and round down. That will be the amount of gold per turn that the marketplace will produce. Then subtract 1 gold for the maintenance of the building, and that will be your net revenue for having the marketplace (luxury boost aside). At least one city had a marketplace that wasn't producing any extra gold, and the others were only producing enough to cover the upkeep cost.

I'm still working on this whole gifting diplomacy thing to keep the cpu happy

You are playing Multiplayer Gold Edition. The AI is much more hostile in that version than in Classic (apparently it was a silly attempt at making the game harder), so you will find that task more difficult if not impossible. The link in my signature has info (eventually) about downgrading MGE to classic.

Getting a caravan to a larger, far away city is a many turn situation that could fail on many fronts

Yes, but with some experience, the payouts are worth it. Also, going by sea is usually safer (and the separate continent bonus is very important).

I've also read about games where people are netting 10, 20, 30,000 gold a turn. That blows my mind right now. I think I am going to have to re-read some of these succession archives.

Those are late game numbers, achieved with very large civs. Don't try to replicate that yet, instead focus on learning where to send caravans for the best payouts. After you have become reasonably good at making each caravan pay, focus on mass producing caravans to fund your empire and conduct your research.

About building cities and not worrying about improvements. Do you typically put a road between them, or just on your trade route/major thoroughfare?

This will vary from player to player. Your first roads should be on shield grassland squares that you are currently working (or on wheat/buffalo that you are working) for the extra trade. Build these if you can do so without major detour from travel to a city site. Once travel to new city sites becomes more difficult, then fill in your road network, focusing primarily on high traffic areas, and also on roading squares that are actually being worked (don't worry if this makes your path a little longer than "optimal").

At what point does one flip flop, I've also read the posts about making sure superhighways, supermarket, etc are in place. So I'm confused about what the trigger here is?

Ideally, you want to make the best action possible. In the early game, you want lots of cities to produce gold and science (having lots of small cities is better because each city gets to work its centre square for free, and that square gets irrigation and roads for free; also, small cities are easier to keep out of disorder). Once you switch to caravans, you will want your cities to be somewhat larger, since larger cities produce better payouts for the same amount of work. Also, at Emperor and Deity, you may find it costly to build more cities eventually because the Riot Factor (extra unhappiness from having too many cities) will become a problem. As for supermarkets and superhighways, you have to have the advance before you can build them anyway; superhighways in particular are "triggered to be built" by automobile being discovered.

I've got to go now, I'm sure others will be around sooner or later to give their own opinions.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Interestingly enough I thought I would try GOTM my way, and then when I read the most recent spoiler's and saw people were actually going on the offensive, that's when I knew I was licked. So I saw it, but I think it will be a couple more months before I'm ready for competition.

Do not get discouraged. You are not going to win a medal on your early attempts. Instead you will learn how to play the game well. There is nothing like seeing how others play the same game.

... I picked Brandenburg's site because of the whales, and was hoping to get to a point to terraform the mountains later.

Search the site and you will find how long it takes settlers/engineers to do their work. It takes 30 engineer-turns to turn a mountain into hill. Most of the times that is not worth it.

I've read the post about marketplaces being worthless.

There are differences of opinion among good players on some issues. This being one of them. Having said that, there is a time and place for marketplaces. Built too soon they are next to worthless.

About building cities and not worrying about improvements. Do you typically put a road between them, or just on your trade route/major thoroughfare?

It depends. First priority is to build roads that will be often traveled and offer an extra arrow when worked on by a citizen. Roads that offer only one of those benefits are less of a priority. Roads that offer neither should not be built.

I had previously done Pyramids first. I don't see a lot of talk about needing them.

Depends on a lot of factors. Most of the time Pyramids is not on my priority list, it is simply a would-be-nice-to-have which I often do not get to build. In GOTM121, however, it was a priority and was the second wonder I built.

For the last couple of weeks I've been chasing techs that give HG, Colossus, Marco, Coper Ob, JS Bach, Leonardo's. In that order, and if something else came along I did it at my discretion. I realize each game is different but that seems to be stronger consensus for single player strategy? Yes?

In most games, the tech priority is Monarchy followed by Trade. Depending on the map mapmaking may be an important early priority as well.

 

[mackerel]

Welcome, Mr. E! Six months ago I was in your position, picking up a game that still haunted me from years ago. I struggled to beat Prince before I found this site. The advice here is very good, and the people are friendly as you can already see.

Look into DaveV's ICS guide. It's a good start on some counterintuitive principles that will help you a lot. The basic concept is to build many small cities, because HG keeps every city up to size 3 happy enough to function. Later on when you're ready to grow the cities, you'll have so many cities that they'll be full of double-unhappy black hats, which are strangely easier to pacify with luxuries than only mildly unhappy red hats. It doesn't make sense but that's how it goes. As others have said, road only what you need and don't spend time irrigating in the early game. As long as you have room, you're always better off with another city.

You should also look into trade. It's complex and painful so I ignored it way back when I didn't know how to win. I guess I didn't know vans give both money and science. I also didn't know about ship chains, which can deliver cargo around the world in one turn. Abuse trade this way for an insurmountable tech lead.

Join in on the GOTM and succession games if you can. Fresh blood keeps it interesting.

 

[Mr E]

Hey Prof Garfield,

I found your downgrade post in the middle of a succession game. I wasn't sure of the best spot to post, I followed the instructions and received a message saying cannot find WING.DLL. I didn't find it anywhere in your zip packages. After I click through the program fails to load. Not sure if this is the first on a long list of missing files or if we are one away from success.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Read through this thread. Jokemaster eventually solves this problem, which I didn't catch because my computer already had the file.

 

[Major Advantage]

I had the same problem (missing wing.dll), but it worked after donwloading and copying it into the windows\system32 folder.
You can get it here: http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/dll-files.shtml?wing

 

[Jokemaster]

Quick addition: If User Account Control is turned on in your computer (on Vista/7) you'll need an administrator password/confirmation before copying the unzipped DLL (or anything for that matter) in the System32 folder.

And also, you won't be able to run Classic Civ2 with an MGE disk (I don't know if the same is true for CiC, FW and ToT, but I suspect the same is true) otherwise the game will crash. You'll need to launch the game without any disk whatsoever, which means that you won't have any videos/music/etc. But it's well worth it.

 

[Mr E]

I've got XP and Win7 as options (dual-boot), but do all of my playing on XP. So no UAC to worry about.

The Wing.dll was it. And leaving the CD out, it launched just fine. Double thanks to Jokemaster. Civ2's been out for a while. I don't think the copyright sharks would still be out there. Would any of you who have Civ2 Classic be up for making an ISO of their CD?

Also as far as my progress. I listened to the devil on my shoulder and dumped that game you saw earlier. To many mountains, and I did choose a normal size map this time. Still playing at the king level to get this alternate strategy down. Computer is well under control.

I'm at 760AD, expansion is starting to cool down, city growth is starting to be my focus. I was much more tame with city development, roads, irrigation and such. In fact just starting to put those in. I was just starting to push some trade with the Russians to my south. Been running in Republic for probably 15 turn now. My STC and SSC really don't have a foothold yet. I would say my biggest challenge is how to keep cities happy so they grow from WLTK day. Any thoughts on that or just general feedback on this newest effort?

Thinking I will stick with this game, but when done try one with Civ classic.

Thanks for all the advice so far and keep the criticism coming.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

A much better game than before, but here are a few quick comments:

You shouldn't be building Colosseums. They only "cure" three unhappy citizens (you need electronics to get the 4th), whereas temples will cure 2 at less than half the build time and maintenance costs. Always build temples first, and look for any possible way to avoid building Colosseums at all (except, perhaps, in your SSC).

Bear Paw seems an odd place to choose for an SSC. It is right beside a much better spot (it would have gotten the wheat, and there might be two hidden specials under the grassland that would be in the corners of its radius); was it a hut city? There is a 2 whale and silk position very close to Little Bighorn (33, 63), and (20, 48) (on the river between Yellowtree and Stony Lake) seems to be at least as good as Bear Paw, from a quick glance. Given that Bear Paw is your SSC, it should be getting some settler attention; it could also use a courthouse and/or a closer capital. Build a temple there before a Colosseum at any rate.

Just so you know, you probably won't get very great payouts if you send the caravans at (22, 60) to St. Petersburg; their home cities are very close. You might learn a lot about caravan payouts by delivering them, but don't be surprised if they are not that great; send caravans from more distant cities down south to trade as well.

On that note, you should be stockpiling caravans for building Michelangelo's Chapel. Choose somewhere you can amass 8 caravans relatively easily for the city in which you will build the wonder. After you get Mike's, you should be in a position to do some celebration, although you should look for cities will little trade, and build harbours or roads near them for some extra trade to support growth.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I would say my biggest challenge is how to keep cities happy so they grow from WLTK day.

First priority is Michelangelo. In fact, it is often pointless to bother with celebrations before it. Next priorities, in no particular order, are:
1. Theology (increases Michelangelo's effectiveness by one)
2. Bach
3. Switch from Republic to Democracy
4. Temple
5. Marketplace
6. Magnetism (so you can navigate with Galleons which do not cause unhappiness)
7. Hanging Gardens and as soon as it expires the Cure
8. Trade routes
9. Bank
10. Building forts for your border guards if you have any
11. Entertainers
12. Superhighways
13. Increasing lux rate
14. Once black head citizens appear, building more cities to increase the number of your black heads
15. Harbors to allow your citizens to work high trade ocean tiles without losing the food surplus necessary for growth
16. building roads anywhere it increases the arrows. The obvious case is over grassland and plains. Less obvious are tiles that already produce an arrow for another reason. These are tiles with a river in them and arrow specials (Silk, Fruit, Spice, ...). Of course, this is only useful if a citizen actually works that tile.

Colosseum, as Prof. Garfield mentioned, is often not needed and should be a lower priority than the above. Stock Exchange rarely makes a difference even in larger cities and would only make sense for increasing your tax revenue in cities close to size 20. Airports do increase the value of your trade routes but they come so late in the game that the primary reason for building them is their strategic transportation value. Communism decreases the effect of cathedrals (and hence Michelangelo) by one and should be avoided unless needed. Electronics increases the effectiveness of Colosseums by one, but the tech is needed for so many other things that this is simply something to be aware of. Finally there is Suffrage, one of the worst wonders in the game in my opinion, which I actively avoid.

 

[Mr E]

I wanted to drop in a quick note to say I'm still plugging away with my test game. Been a bit busy lately, but have managed to work a few game nights in. Had a laugh yesterday when I had discovered electronics, and the next turn I got a message that one of the computer civ's had just discovered pottery.

I do see a major change in things. Although I'm playing at King and not Emperor. All cpu's civs are well under control. My advancement's are running about 4 turns right now. Cash flow is no problem. So it's looking good.

Still want to see the difference in diplomacy in classic civ. Thinking a game at emperor level in that version is in order. I may try my luck at the next GOTM. Thanks again.

E

 

[Mr E]

Hey everyone,
It may be almost laughable at this point considering my last post was in May. I'm a busy father of 3 so private gaming time is rare, especially in the summer. I wanted to say thanks. I've played a couple of offline games over the summer and was pretty happy with the results. I credit all of your good advice. I just finished GOTM 125.

I think I did fairly well. Took a couple of restarts at various points (since the rules for this month said I could). In the end I had a couple of mistakes but was just glad to get it done. Will continue to pop in from time to time. I like the scenario GOTM's. Those massive maps end up taking me to long in my limited game time. Attempts to do GOTM 123, & 124 never got done in time.

Eric

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I just finished GOTM 125. I think I did fairly well.

Post your results in the spoiler.

I like the scenario GOTM's. Those massive maps end up taking me to long in my limited game time. Attempts to do GOTM 123, & 124 never got done in time.

Massive map does not always mean massive time specially in custom settings. Make sure you check out GOTM 126. As for typical games on large maps, you can always play OCC when pressed for real time.

 

[Mr E]

Hi Ali,

Yeah, just read the spoiler. I had stayed away from it, I wanted to see how I did with my own knowledge. I won't be adding anything to that thread, my ships left docks well after everyone else's. I was aware of 2 mistakes while playing that I had wanted to redo but just didn't have the time. After reading that board, I now see several other problems. Another learning experience.