gettingfat said:
That's a whole new topic. In modern age, every country has a certain building or project that is so extraordinary which draw headline news in many countries and become a tourist attraction. The problem is, they also become history footnotes much quicker. In a sense, the so-called modern wonders are not that wonderful anymore. That's why you actually see the game downplaying the significance of wonders in modern age.
I agree about the time window, but the problem is that the modern age of Civ IV never sees that point in which modern wonders "are not that wonderful anymore." It may be true in the real world, but invaribly the technology tree cutoff has to occur somewhere. Again, it goes to my original post, all of those bonuses to the wonders are limited in their impact (+1 trade route isn't much in its overall impact in the game), in comparision to wonders like the bonus with the Pyramids or the Statue of Liberty.
It also enters into the problems of the late game, where the only things left to build in your core cities are troops or spaceship parts (especially on marathon).
gettingfat said:
Besides 3 Gorge Dam, anything else not American in the modern age?
The Eiffel Tower, the Kremlin, and the UN (I would consider a wonder that is not limited to one nation/civilization, even though the headquaters is located in the states).
gettingfat said:
Sorry to be blunt, you still don't get it. There IS a limit of wonders in the game to avoid upsetting the game balance. So some decisions between this one and that one have to be made. Finally it comes down to a game of politics. The game designer took out the Great Wall, Sun Tze replaced by Pentagon, and add Broadway, Hollywood, Rock'N-Roll, Mt Rushmore. They feel something needed to be done to "compensate" Chinese, so they replaced Hoover with 3-Gorge. To tell you the truth, as a Chinese, I'd rather see the Great Wall than the 3-Gorge Dam, if a choice has to be made, since the former is more a real wonder.
Again, I don't understand why you are citing the Great Wall when examining American wonders, when you don't even address the actual wonder that "replaced" it, the Chichen Itza. I have no idea why they went that direction, but that's how the game ended up as. By your logic, the devs would also have a political bias towards central America. The Pentagon was in Civ III, it merely was upgraded from having 4 units in an army to +2 experience points. I don't see that as replacing the Art of War, I see them as removing that benefit because it was too overpowering to have a barracks in every city. Should it be in the game? What bonus would you give it?
gettingfat said:
All of your arguments are based on one premise - when something is very great, it should be made a wonder; therefore in modern age there are so many things great, there should be more wonders.
That's a horrible strawman argument, I have said nothing on my conditions of what constitutes a wonder. As I posted on Ellis Island, there are aspects necessary when evaluating a wonder, ie the historical uniquess of the impact of what it represents. But that is only one aspect I have even posted on. If you want to make a thread on what constitutes the selection of wonders, go ahead, I'll post.
gettingfat said:
This is simply not how it works in this game. This game is basically like picking the 7 Great Wonders in each age. You evidently don't think this should be the case because as I said, you're living in this age and see everything that happens now is bigger. To me, Mt. Rushmore or Ellis Island is not one of the top 7 or even 10. To you, you believe since they all are great they are wonders. I can only agree to disagree.
Again, that isn't my position at all. But if we aren't getting anywhere, I'll agree to disagree.
gettingfat said:
The lasting effect is not a requirement, but the lasting appeal is. People go to see Pyramid not because they want a tomb. And that's why the game designer still give an expired wonder culture value and even doubled-culture value. In a way the Civ4 designer doesn't give much culture value to the modern age wonders and assign some of them as projects instead because those stuff may be technologically great, they don't have that appealing effect any more, so they are only "projects". IMHO, I believe you are actually the one who is completely contradictory to how Civ IV is designed.
As I've said previously, the game doesn't last long enough into the future technologies to represent the obsoletion of modern wonders. And what wonder isn't technologically great? I'm sure the Pyramids pushed the Egyptian engineers to their limits. Bringing up the team projects as reflection of your point doesn't make any sense, those are entered into the game because of A)Victory condition (Apollo), B)Nuclear Warfare (Manhatten and SDI), and C)Late game comeback dynamic (Internet).
What modern wonder doesn't have some sort of impact culturally? I can't name one, the closest would be the Pentagon, but that represents post-industrialistic military might and organization. The three modern "cultural" wonders, Broadway, Rock n' Roll, and Hollywood, all provide +50% culture to a city. It is more than evident that the devs provided that bonus to provide a cultural balance between ancient and modern wonders, otherwise they would have still provided the fixed amount of cultural generation on a per turn basis. By providing +50%, they bring into balance the long-term generation of culture by an ancient wonder and the quick increase by modern wonders. The 50% bonus more than demonstrates what I have said previously that the devs intended there to be a balance in the gameplay impact of modern and ancient wonders.
But "lasting appeal" on its own makes no sense in a criteria for choosing wonders. The Colossus, for example, is nothing more than a bunch of historical records that report its impact back during the age it was built. The same goes for the Great Library. Those wonders made the game for their impact in their respective ages, and not for their influence/ "lasting appeal" on modern people (outside of historians) or the people that lived after their destruction.
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