I don't want people to feel like there's something shady going on. I'm going to flatten out the bonus curve a little.
G
G
Brutal AI
- Thread starter Aristos
- Start date
Txurce
Deity
My problem is how noticeable it is late, vs at other, earlier junctures in the game.
I don't mind the AI steadily pulling away from me, but I don't want to be thinking about an upcoming AI quantum leap. In a nutshell, it breaks immersion.
Txurce
Deity
Never crossed my mind.
The entire phenomenon is kinda interesting. Let's see what happens next version.
Aristos
Lightseeker
Why would you do that? If there is nothing in the bonuses that justifies observed behavior and it is only attributable to the new AI code blocks/algos, then kudos and we all need to step down levels.
I have not seen any changes in Difficultymod.xml as compared to 1.23 version, which was a pushover compared to 7.15. If that change is because of the new AI, it's welcomed!
What we all want is to be sure it's really a better AI only, so we can enjoy our struggles/defeats with grace. If you say it is just that, nobody here wants to distrust you, quite the opposite. So, if you are completely sure that the new code is working as expected, and nothing is wonky, just say it and everyone will be happy (I know, you already said it before, but you know...).
In any case, I would love a detailed speculation from you (and it has to be from you, as you are the one who really knows the code inside and out of your mod) as to how Babylon could have pulled that 28 tech in 32 turns leap... not a summary of possible factors, but a more or less detailed speculation (not an essay, mind you, just some more detail than what you said before).
Reason is, I am again trying Babylon and attempting to pull something similar, and even if I am faring well in this Emperor game, and no other AI has shown signs of a similar pattern in this game (turn 250ish now), there is no way in sight I can pull a jump ahead even remotely similar to the observed in posted graphs... I would really like to know how the AI did it.
My assumption is that a couple of AI handicap bonuses triggered right at a moment when the AI had popped a scientist or two, thus their science per turn was artificially high (thus inflating the value of the difficulty curve).
G
In that event, I think we would see a spike...but a short term one correct? In this case, people are talking about a sustained jump for ~30 turns, which would take more than a few scientists I would imagine.
Yeah, this is the thing I'm finding weird. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't want G to nerf the AI(that's just a boring way to handle it) but I would like to go to the bottom of why that crazy jump happens every game.
Aristos
Lightseeker
Yes, exactly, that would be my expectation for a "super" combination of bonuses for the AI, which by definition should be rare (and not a problem). I am in no position to say the behavior I posted is or is not rare, because to do that I would have to play dozens of games. OTOH, if many more people are seeing the same behavior in their games, then we might arrive to such conclusions.
In any case, even if rare, I have never seen something like that, not from me nor from the AI, thus it caught my attention (and my sci mind just wants to know how).
Interesting discussion. That, in itself, is already a testament to what G&I have achieved with this mod. As someone else said, in vanilla we were discussing if AI can move and shoot
, now we are discussing this. Leaps ahead!
Dawnbringer
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2016
- Messages
- 102
It's usually Korea or Babylon that gets the extreme situation. However, when I'm playing as Korea, and I am out teched by a normal civ(not just a couple techs behind) around turn 170 onwards, that's when I get a little edgy.
I have mixed feelings about the AI.
I played as Suleiman in Immortal game on Epic speed, starting in Medieval Era. Communitas, Terra, standard size + 2 additional Civs and with 20 CSs.
I took Progress, fully filled the tree, then the same with Industry and Statecraft.
Screenshots:
http://scr.hu/91kj/mqoqn
http://scr.hu/91kj/2z7rt
I know, I was below average in Soldiers, but I didn't feel unsafe, because everybody liked me... In addition, I had 7 cities and amazing gold income (gpt and from policies) - I could easly make an army for defense.
Edit: about 50 turns later: http://scr.hu/91kj/9d9u8
A lot of AIs was friendly to me, I even made declarations of friendship with AIs with the lowest score to help them. Soon, Civ from 2nd and 4th place made DoF with me. Nobody hated me, nobody wanted my lands. Only Darius was mad at me in the beginning, but now he's also friendly to me. Theodora asked a few times, if I want to trade Bursa city.
They don't even expand. I mean, there are a lot of lands to claim (also wondering why Communitas Terra standard size map with 2 more Civs and 4 more CSs is so big?) and they just don't do it.
Ok, it's Epic game speed, but still, I remember that AI liked to expand a lot - not anymore?
Maybe this is because of Barbarians Evolved mod? I mean, it adds Barbarian Civ which declare war at everyone they meet. It's fun to play with, but if it breaks the logic of AIs, I think I'll disable it. And I wasn't really active in killing barbs, I didn't even take Authority policy.
Or was it because I started in Medieval Era instead of Ancient? Are AIs bad in starting game in later eras?
I want to have some challenges, now it feels boring
I'm thinking about starting a new game, maybe without BE mod, but don't know, if I should go for Immortal or maybe it's time for Diety difficulty.
I played as Suleiman in Immortal game on Epic speed, starting in Medieval Era. Communitas, Terra, standard size + 2 additional Civs and with 20 CSs.
I took Progress, fully filled the tree, then the same with Industry and Statecraft.
Screenshots:
http://scr.hu/91kj/mqoqn
http://scr.hu/91kj/2z7rt
I know, I was below average in Soldiers, but I didn't feel unsafe, because everybody liked me... In addition, I had 7 cities and amazing gold income (gpt and from policies) - I could easly make an army for defense.
Edit: about 50 turns later: http://scr.hu/91kj/9d9u8
A lot of AIs was friendly to me, I even made declarations of friendship with AIs with the lowest score to help them. Soon, Civ from 2nd and 4th place made DoF with me. Nobody hated me, nobody wanted my lands. Only Darius was mad at me in the beginning, but now he's also friendly to me. Theodora asked a few times, if I want to trade Bursa city.
They don't even expand. I mean, there are a lot of lands to claim (also wondering why Communitas Terra standard size map with 2 more Civs and 4 more CSs is so big?) and they just don't do it.
Ok, it's Epic game speed, but still, I remember that AI liked to expand a lot - not anymore?
Maybe this is because of Barbarians Evolved mod? I mean, it adds Barbarian Civ which declare war at everyone they meet. It's fun to play with, but if it breaks the logic of AIs, I think I'll disable it. And I wasn't really active in killing barbs, I didn't even take Authority policy.
Or was it because I started in Medieval Era instead of Ancient? Are AIs bad in starting game in later eras?
I want to have some challenges, now it feels boring
I'm thinking about starting a new game, maybe without BE mod, but don't know, if I should go for Immortal or maybe it's time for Diety difficulty.
I have mixed feelings about the AI.
I played as Suleiman in Immortal game on Epic speed, starting in Medieval Era. Communitas, Terra, standard size + 2 additional Civs and with 20 CSs.
I took Progress, fully filled the tree, then the same with Industry and Statecraft.
Screenshots:
http://scr.hu/91kj/mqoqn
http://scr.hu/91kj/2z7rt
I know, I'm below average in Soldiers, but I don't feel unsafe, because everybody likes me... In addition, I have 7 cities and amazing gold income (gpt and from policies) - I could easly make an army for defense.
Edit: about 50 turns later: http://scr.hu/91kj/9d9u8
A lot of AIs are friendly to me, I even made declarations of friendship with AIs with the lowest score to help them. Soon, Civ from 2nd and 4th place made DoF with me. Nobody hates me, nobody wants my lands. Only Darius was mad at me in the beginning, but now he's also friendly to me. Theodora asked a few times, if I want to trade Bursa city.
They don't even expand. I mean, there are a lot of lands to claim (also wondering why Communitas Terra standard size map with 2 more Civs and 4 more CSs is so big?) and they just don't do it.
Ok, it's Epic game speed, but still, I remember that AI liked to expand a lot - not anymore?
Maybe this is because of Barbarians Evolved mod? I mean, it adds Barbarian Civ which declare war at everyone they meet. It's fun to play with, but if it breaks the logic of AIs, I think I'll disable it. And I wasn't really active in killing barbs, I didn't even take Authority policy.
Or was it because I started in Medieval Era instead of Ancient? Are AIs bad in starting game in later eras?
I want to have some challenges, now it feels boring
I'm thinking about starting a new game, maybe without BE mod, but don't know, if I should go for Immortal or Diety difficulty.
Being at war will affect the behavior of the AI towards all other civs. The AI really does not like to be at war with more than one player if it can help it.
G
tu_79
Deity
Honestly, if you don't fight the AI once in a while, you are in a worse position, because the AI usually handles culture and science better than us. So they can be luring you to stay peaceful so they can win. Or you picked the wrong difficulty level.
Txurce
Deity
This is an excellent point, and worth stressing because it goes against the average Civ player's intuition. My last game is a good example.
Playing England on Emperor, I drew Austria, Brazil and (on the other side of the continent) Assyria as my neighbors. We all had DOF's, and I had two units and ZERO ships by the time cruisers were available. Yet I was right up there in the tech race, largely because I converted all my neighbors to my religion before they had one for themselves. (Sainthood in these conditions is amazing.)
I also controlled the WC. When the points leader Incans gave me a DOW for blocking their progress in the WC, I built up a fleet of four SOTL-upgraded cruisers and one ironclad, while killing the stray units the far-off Incans sent over. Then I sailed over the top and attacked his capital -- took it -- and got a peace treaty that very turn.
The Incans fell to third in the standings... but I began to lose control of the game to Austria. Despite one successful decolonization, Austria, which had expanded easily in the early and mid-game, became too rich to stop its CS alliances and marriages. I would have needed to compete directly for a Diplo victory, but had decided prior to starting that I was going for Science. (And competing for a diplo would have been tough, given my much smaller size.)
Not expanding in a second wave until it was too little and too late made me fall behind in the Wonder race, after having led it. Austria could probably have won a Science race eventually. But they easily beat me in the first UN vote for the win.
Looking back, fighting them in the WC wasn't going to be enough. (Maybe sanctions, but I doubt it.) What I need to do at some point is attack them the way I did the Incans. I didn't, because of the diplo consequences: we were allies, and both Freedom. But in retrospect, that was my only chance (playing a restricted game where I only had one, difficult VC).
I'm finishing up a game on v. 7-7 (this was as a fun game so i am trying to finish it) and noticed that Korea got 6 techs in 6 turns at the beginning of the Renaissance! As they were using Progress and Piety and did NOT found a religion not exactly sure how this is possible.
So what I could theoretically see.
1) 2 normal techs
2) 1 stolen tech through spy
3) 2 Great Scientists (maybe wonder through wonder, one normal?)
That's 5....couldn't figure out 6.
Moi Magnus
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2015
- Messages
- 1,868
Difficulty bonus : when entering a new era, AIs have a instant science bonus.
