BTS Game Balance Changes, Suggestions?

kniteowl

Pirate Captain :P
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
1,269
Location
NZ
Just as the title says... What do you think is required to balance, What would you want to fix?

State what you want changes and a reason why, it's overpower, underpowered, broken etc

And Hopefully this thread might give people at Fraxis some ideas for future patches... or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

For example, Subs Should get an Attack bonus against Battleships. (eg 100% vs Battleships) Why an attack bonus only? Well the Subs special ability is all about surprise attacks, I haven't played many navel wars but this makes sense in countering battleships.

Or Castles Obsolete too quickly and the trade route bonus is useless, besides people rarely ever build it, they should remove the extra trade route and give a +2XP to Siege and obsolete with Artillery

Or Grenadiers come way too late they should make Military Science Available with Gunpowder and Military Tradition.

Or Financial is overpowered and should be changed to +1C for every 3C and get cheap banks again.

Anything that you think requires tweaking, Unit, Building, Trait, Civic, Corp etc...

You're welcome to upload your own Modifications here for others to try
 
Financial is not overpowered. It's fine. It's a very good, arguably the best, but not overpowered.

I think Imperialistic needs help. As it is, it's a good trait only if you are constantly at war. If you're constantly at war, this is the philosophical trait for warmongers. But I feel imperialistic should be more than just war. It needs an economic boost. Something like -50% maintenance costs for all corporations (this will make imperialistic leaders keener to found corporations and use them to build their empires).

The Phalanx is also too weak. It's only advantage is if a close rival has horses and has built chariots. That's two conditions in the early game. Horses are as rare as it is. If your rival doesn't have horses or hasn't built chariots and just defends with archers this UU is not unique it's just an ordinary axeman. In a game where other UU are getting free promotions, extra strength and extra movement, why is this so underpowered? I say give it 100% defense against chariots AND free march promotion.
 
I think that infantry need to be pushed back - to industrialism or even further. I always try and get the pentagon so im always getting assembly line well before railroads and so machinegunners are useless. Anyone else have this problem?
 
I think that infantry need to be pushed back - to industrialism or even further. I always try and get the pentagon so im always getting assembly line well before railroads and so machinegunners are useless. Anyone else have this problem?

Why are machinegunners useless against infantry? They get 50% bonus against gunpowder units and have first strike.

Imo castles need help. I like to build castles, but they come too late and get obsoleted way too early.
 
Or Castles Obsolete too quickly and the trade route bonus is useless, besides people rarely ever build it, they should remove the extra trade route and give a +2XP to Siege and obsolete with Artillery

Or Grenadiers come way too late they should make Military Science Available with Gunpowder and Military Tradition.

Castle does obsolete a bit too quick, but artillery is just too late. By the way, castle and wall defense does not apply to post gunpower units anyway. Rifling would be the proper tech, since it obsolete walls too.

The way Grenadiers comes at Military science is fine (it arrived at chemistry back in warlords, which was immediately after gunpowder), but I usually dont feel like teching it early since my opponents dont have rifling yet and cuirasser does a better job (2 movement). MS is just not attractive at all. Perhaps by discovering this tech, it doubles the exp cap of upgrading units from 10 to 20, allowing more experienced units (and finally easier to build that West Point national wonder).


I propose that to increase the cost of Anti-tank and Sam Infantry without the proper tech. An Anti-tank without Industrialism and SAM without Flight should cost more hammers mainly for game-balance.

Also, supermarket can use a 25% increase in gold (like grocer and market) to balance out the $$ from corporation. The American mall then should get a 50% increase in gold.

Nuclear plant itself should give production bonus. A 25% bonus (50% with power) is desirable, since it comes so late and has a chance to meltdown. Compensate this with pollution or unhappiness, and requirement to build nuke in city.
 
Chichen Itza need a boost, it's probably one of those wonders no body ever builds unless they become wonder obsessed. Probably make it give Free Walls in every city and since Chichen Itza obsoletes with Rifling, it fits perfectly.

Free Walls will be a lot more attractive to the Celts, Spain and Industrious leaders and Highland maps. Less attractive to Protective and Creative Leaders.

I find it strange that Skirmishers have better odds at city defending against melee units then Bowmen do, therefore Skirmisher > Bowmen, which isn't right I don't know any UU of the same type that is better then other UUs at everything.

Defending fortified Bowmen in a city in a VS vs Melee unit with no Bonuses

Bowmen = 3*(2.25) = 6.75 str

Defending fortified Skirmisher in a city VS any unit with no Bonuses

Skirmisher = 4*(1.75) = 7 str

I think bowmen should either get free shock promotion or +100% vs melee

Infantry#14 said:
The way Grenadiers comes at Military science is fine (it arrived at chemistry back in warlords, which was immediately after gunpowder), but I usually dont feel like teching it early since my opponents dont have rifling yet and cuirasser does a better job (2 movement).

I dunno it's a choice between City Raider Maceman upgraded to Grenadiers vs Fast moving cuirassers, Both are good in their own way. I'm just giving Grenadiers more of an opportunity in BTS Since many people tend to ignore them now.

Infantry#14 said:
Nuclear plant itself should give production bonus. A 25% bonus (50% with power) is desirable, since it comes so late and has a chance to meltdown. Compensate this with pollution or unhappiness, and requirement to build nuke in city.

I think Nuclear Power plants should have 0% chance of meltdown once Fusion is discovered... I think this makes sense but i don't know my physics very well. I dunno about the extra production though... maybe make it that a Meltdown doesn't lead to a nuclear bomb going off in your city, instead make it that if you have a Nuclear meltdown your unhealthiness goes up by 10 for 10 turns (and varies depending on game speed)
 
The changes I like for the sake of balance:

Nuclear plants give a free scientist
Dun gives 10 percent espionage defense
Castle obsoletes with chemistry
Imperialistic double stables, jails
Expansive, 50 percent worker build
Divine right gives great prophet
GG can start GA

I'm trying to create a unit that can paratroop, has amphibious and commando promotions for the late game that appears with stealth. That way marines and paratroopers can upgrade and there are more incentives to build them earlier. Anyway, what other ideas are there?

EDIT: You can't change grenadiers, because if you put them any sooner it makes muskets/musketeers/oromo warriors are obsolete too soon.
 
Espionage totally reworked.... that's really my biggest want. There's really not much about it I do like - the Passive side is fine, but the entire mechanic seems badly integrated considering how much of an important role it takes up.

The AI needs to be addressed too - but I am sure that's high on their priority list anyway as it so frequently falls down at present.


The reasons for both have been discussed in great depth on this forum, so no need to repost all the points again here.... unless someone from Firaxis jumps in and says "No really, tell us why"!! :D
 
Serfdom=underpowered, make it No maintenance

Imperialistic= underpowered make Food used for Workers + Settlers get the Bonus
[would also improve Expansive slightly]

Nuclear Plants should be required to build nuclear weapons, Manhattan Project should remove this requirement for the Civ it is in.

Later Religions are underpowered so
2 Missionaries with Philosphy (instead of just 1)
3 with Theology
3 with Divine Right and a Great Prophet

Divine Right itself is useless to any but the first to get to it (2 Wonders are the only benefit, so it should have a bonus.. perhaps +1 Happiness for State Religion, or for State Religion Buildings.. or just Monasteries... so that it goes obsolete)

Castles, I think maybe Steel would be a good time to obsolete them.. I would keep the Trade Route.. but the +2 for Siege seems like it might be decent

Chichen Itza would probably be OK with a 50% defense bonus (with the revisions to siege)

Great Generals I would improve the following way
1) Attatching a leader gives 30 experience for the stack and 1 Free Promotion
2) The Military Academy appears Early and gives +35% military production... Increasing to +75% with Military Science
3) Heroic Epic only gives +25% to Military production, BUT it gives 1 Great Gerneral Point for every unit built there
4) allow GAs?

I really like the idea of Military Science changing the Experience Cap from 10 to 20... perhaps there could be a 'leo's Workshop type Wonder/National Wonder/Effect... ie reduced upgrade cost' [probably -33%.. somewhere between -25 and -50]

Computers+Robotics needs to be Improved for a Space Race Win
The Internet should give +30% Commerce to Every Civ that has the Computers Tech
The Space Elevator should give +150% Space Ship production

Marines+Paratroopers are too Specialized, they are decent troops for the Industrial time period, but for the Modern Time Period, I'd make a unit
Str 28
Move=2
Paradrop 7
Amphibious, Commando
Requires Advanced Flight and ?Composites?Fiber Optics? [some other advanced tech that obsoleted both of them (also simplifies the system)]

ps Bowmen are better than Skirmishers against Melee Outside of cities so I'd leave them as is.
 
Castles an walls should obsolete with cannon, since thats the unit that effectively allowed attackers to take heavily fortified cities that in the past would have been very difficult to take much more easily.

Castles should be available with construction, were they provide an additional 50% for 100% total, with the discovery of engineering this should increase by another 25% for a total of 125% def, big castles of the day were some of the most difficult structures to lanch an assault against, an example being the castles built along the coast during the crusades, these had stockpiles of food an supplies to withstand a siege of 5 years, i do not feel castles are given a true representation in the game in terms of there defensive attributes there more like walls mark II which is simply not the case, the above would also solve the complaints that they obsolete to early an are not worth getting.

The explorer unit would no longer be available (it's totally pointless everythings already been discovered) in it's place would be a recon party with a site radius of 2, making it a useful unit for giving your stack a greater site radius an keeping an eye on things, this would later upgrade to a modern equivalent Army Rangers or somthing like that with a 3 site range and the medic promotion.

Marine an paratrooper would merge into a later modern era commando style unit, with the robotic's teck, theres a thread on that already open, since mech inf pretty much obsoletes marines outright, an paratroopers are to niche in the late modern era.
Somthing along the lines of
str 24 + 2 FS
starts with commando, amphib, paradrops
Longer range paradrop than current paratroop, can paradrop from aircraft carrier, aircraft carrier can carry 3 of them
only takes 2 turns to fully fortify, + fortify bonus is 50%

Naval combat to be given a major overhaul so units are structured in a style that promotes variety, take land units, axes counter swords, chariots counter axes etc, the naval works fine up until destoyers (mainly because the older sailing ships each have a more specific role an function meaning they all have there uses), when it seems to revert to a destroyer + the odd battleship navy, the other naval units (subs really) have combat power so low that they cant sink anything except a lone transport, destroyers should have a major bonus vs subs, subs should have a major bonus on the attack when attacking surface ships, they should all be worth getting at the moment destroyers with the odd battleship rules, subs are a waste since they are outclassed by everything bar non combat ships, an since the sub is waste that means it's counter the attack sub also has little function, considering the importance subs play an have played in naval warfare it's shame there so lame toothed in the game

Something along the lines of
destroyer str 30 + 75% bonus vs subs
Battleship str 36 + 50% vs destroyer
Sub str 24 with 1 first strikes + 75% attacking surface ships (can carry 6 cruise missiles)
Attack sub str 24 with 1 FS + 75% attacking suface ships, + 50% vs subs, has 1 more movement point over a standard sub
Stealth Destroyer as destroyer but stealth system can be detected by all units that can spot subs, SD can spot subs (it cant at the moment)
Missile cruiser str 36 + 50% vs destroyers can carry 8 cruise missiles

Naval promotions with a bit more strategy to them like the land units get, sonar upgrade + 25% vs subs, formation upgrade for ships, + 25% def on the open sea, High explosive topedeo's subs + 25 vs all targets you know what i mean stuff along those lines rather than simple combat stars an drills

Promotion tidy up, gunships can still access the shock promotion, why? it's totally pointless to have that on a gunship, while it looses the siege promotion, that was available to cavalry, so the promotion thats still relevant an useful you can no longer get one you upgrade to gunships while the one thats totaly outdated you can, it just looks ridiculous, mech infs can get the cover promotion? again why this promotion should obsolete with mech inf an no longer be available since archery units are long gone by then.

Airships should have a counter unit, available shortly afterwards a ww1 style plane with a 40% odd intercept chance rate or some such so your not competely defenseless but at the same time not so good that it makes airships no longer worth getting.

Those are my main gripes to be honest, or at least the ones that spring frequently to mind
 
I think the subs should start with something similar to that fruity ballista elephant unit. When you attack a fleet of ships, you get a 50% chance of attacking any transports or carriers in the stack. I'd encourage people to actually form proper naval fleets spanning multiple tiles....... with the strong units on the outside and the transports and carriers in the middle. Much preferable (imho!) than the naval SOD's that most people use on watery maps.

I also think a cap needs to be put on the amount of units that can be killed by flanking attacks. At the moment you only need to throw a few suicidal knights at somebodies SOD, and you can kill all the siege units in the stack. Replacing one type of suicide unit with another, doesn't really seem like a great way of fixing things.
 
Gunpowder should give a siege weapon. Hand held firearms and bombardment weapons appeared about the same time, and rockets and grenades were as well.

Call it

Bombard, Str 10, move 1, basically tougher than a trebuchet vs cities and pretty good in the field too. Cost 90? And as it is gunpowder-based, it ignores walls and castles.

Gunpowder should make a fair difference when you get it, but Musketmen just don't impress enough. The real power of early gunpowder use was in sieges.
 
for Naval combat I'd split them into types (like Melee/Archer, etc.)

however, it would be
Capital Ships (Carriers, Battleships, Missile Cruisers)
Subs(subs, attack subs)
Surface Ships (Anything else)

Give Subs +50% v. Capital Ships, and a Flanking ability v. Transports like that of cavalry although possibly weaker
[new promotions would be nice, but more of an expansion than a rebalancing]

Air units need the ability to sink ships... either innately or with a promotion.

Flanking overall should probably be weakened and/or remove Flanking Ability from Knights and let Horse Archers upgrade all the way to Currasiers instead of Knights (Horse Archers do Less damage)

I'd make the Bombard Str 6 +50% v cities (so slightly better than Trebuchet) otherwise like a Trebuchet [but a gunpowder unit so ignoring Walls+castles]
requires Gunpowder+Engineering and Copper or Iron cost 90 sounds good

Airships should have a Range of 1 but be able to 'hover' with a move of 4 to make them real sub spotters
 
Many good ideas are coming here! Here are my ideas.

Cristo Redentor: Remove the double speed production for Spiritual leaders and make sure only Spiritual leaders don't have to wait 5 turns to switch civics (this would be like Versailles in Rise of Nations).

Ger: Give Mounted Units free Sentry promotion in addition to the current benefits.

East Indiaman: Rename it Fluyt; the name "East Indiaman" sound silly to me.

Swordsman, Jaguar, Gallic Warrior, Praetorian: -25% vs. Mounted units
or
Horse Archer, Keshik, Numidian Cavalry: +50% vs. Melee units, -50% vs. Archery units
 
seasnake said:
Castle obsoletes with chemistry

Krikkitone said:
Castles, I think maybe Steel would be a good time to obsolete them.. I would keep the Trade Route.. but the +2 for Siege seems like it might be decent

peter450 said:
Castles an walls should obsolete with cannon, since thats the unit that effectively allowed attackers to take heavily fortified cities that in the past would have been very difficult to take much more easily.

I feel sorry for Spain it's more of a Nerf to their UB ain't it, in this case their better off obsoleting with Economics... It sounds like you're trying to stay more with realism then game balance... because then, to me personally it feels like their obsoleting even more quickly... I like my Steel beeline for Cannons.

peter450 said:
Castles should be available with construction, were they provide an additional 50% for 100% total, with the discovery of engineering this should increase by another 25% for a total of 125% def, big castles of the day were some of the most difficult structures to lanch an assault against, an example being the castles built along the coast during the crusades, these had stockpiles of food an supplies to withstand a siege of 5 years, i do not feel castles are given a true representation in the game in terms of there defensive attributes there more like walls mark II which is simply not the case, the above would also solve the complaints that they obsolete to early an are not worth getting.

That might actually work, having Castles earlier, but the question still remains, will we still build them even if they're available earlier?

peter450 said:
Something along the lines of
destroyer str 30 + 75% bonus vs subs
Battleship str 36 + 50% vs destroyer
Sub str 24 with 1 first strikes + 75% attacking surface ships (can carry 6 cruise missiles)
Attack sub str 24 with 1 FS + 75% attacking suface ships, + 50% vs subs, has 1 more movement point over a standard sub

I think we should keep it simple, make it Subs (includes Attack subs) counter Battleships, Battleship counter Destroyers and Destroyers counter subs, so the only change you need is to give subs a bonus vs battleships.

Of course I wouldn't mind a total change by giving each navel unit a type like Krikkitone suggested.

Swein Forkbeard said:
Cristo Redentor: Remove the double speed production for Spiritual leaders and make sure only Spiritual leaders don't have to wait 5 turns to switch civics (this would be like Versailles in Rise of Nations).

I thinking about a much simpler fix like you must wait 1 turn between civics changes, therefore there aren't any crazy combinations like drafting, whipping and rush buying units under military civics then switching back to economic civics, you have to choose within that turn do you want economic or military civics.
 
I feel sorry for Spain it's more of a Nerf to their UB ain't it, in this case their better off obsoleting with Economics... It sounds like you're trying to stay more with realism then game balance... because then, to me personally it feels like their obsoleting even more quickly... I like my Steel beeline for Cannons.



That might actually work, having Castles earlier, but the question still remains, will we still build them even if they're available earlier?

.

Well possibly make them obsolete with Corporation (that way there is no net loss of Trade routes... and you have Jails available then too, to make up for the loss of Espionage bonus)

That would allow you to participate in the Great Merchnt rush, and get a wide flung Trading Empire (with Customs Houses guarded by Castles, Frigates + Cannons)
 
I'll put also new promotions to warlord unit, such as morale (+10% str for units at the same tile)...
Also hide enemy promotions. This means that odds can not be precious as now...
Chichen Itza needs completely new feature- free walls or +20% city defence which can not be damaged by siege weapons...
 
Krikkitone said:
ps Bowmen are better than Skirmishers against Melee Outside of cities so I'd leave them as is.

That's a strange way to use an archer... but even then the bowen will still be on the losing end even if they have slightly better odds outside the city and how many times have you used bowmen to defend or attack a melee unit outside a city?

you're better off using Your own axemen or chariot to counter other melee units.

Attacking bowmen vs Axemen

3 str vs 3.3 str = (5/1.5)

Defending bowmen vs Axemem

(3*1.5) 4.5 str vs 5 str
 
I think Castles should be given something like -20% City Maintenance to add even more incentive to building them maybe that along with earlier availability would do the trick?
 
Most of these are for balance, but some are simply logical:

Castles obsoleted with Rifling (not Economics), just like Walls.

Castles no longer grant a bonus trade route. Instead, they provide -25% war weariness to represent the heightened control a feudal lord has.

Gunpowder yields access to the Bombard unit, which is a strength 8 siege weapon that costs 80 hammers and knocks down defenses and does collateral damage at the trebuchet's rate, with the added advantage of being a gunpowder unit (so it ignores defenses from walls, castles). Knights, curiassiers and cavalry will get flanks attacks against it. This eases the transition between trebuchets and cannons, and eliminates the highly odd situation of riflemen stomping about with trebuchets running artillery support in the 18th century.

I think Mustketmen are fine as they are. They typically win against every contemporary unit but knights, so it encourages the old "pike, shot, and cavalry" forces that were common in the renaissance. The only thing that is missing is some kind of gunpowder artillery...

Imperialistic gets double production speed on Jails, Colloseums, and Customs Houses - all of which represent the ease with which imperial powers jail dissenters, distract the masses with entertainment, and profit from overseas colonies.

Expansive gets +3 health back.

Serfdom (the civic) is granted extra abilities beyond the worker speed bonus: "all farms gain +1 commerce. All hamlets, villages and towns provide -1 commerce. Medium upkeep." This represents the tendency for feudal economies to focus primarily on farmwork to the detriment of urban centers. More importantly, it allows plains-based nations covered in farmland with little recourse to cottage economies a method to continue researching AND grants this overlooked civic new life. However, as time goes on and the printing press and subsequent discoveries are made, the benefits of Serfdom rapidly expire and practically demand a revolution. Just like real life.

The Byzantine Hippodrome now replaces the Colloseum (as it should), and grants +1 happines per 10% culture slider rather than the colosseum's 20% (oh, and grants +1 happiness for horses too), keeping it an amazing building. The Odeon replaces the theatre for the Greeks as well, and on top of the theatre's normal benefits offers an extra 2 artist specialists and a +1 happiness bonus.

Axemen have a base strength of 4, but otherwise remain the same. They will still easily trash spearmen and warriors, but will be on even footing with swordsmen, who use better metal. Any units based on axemen receive a downgrade of 1 to their strength (Vulture, I'm looking at you).

Chariots' +100% bonus against axemen is replaced with a +50% bonus against axemen and swordsmen. This keeps them good on the open field against mainline melee infantry, but prone to fail against spear defenders, good archers or other mounted units. They're still a bit lacking against cities, though, so I think it's a good fit.

Horse archers receive a +50% bonus against melee infantry, similar to the chariots. Cavalry (like knights, curiassiers, and for a short period, cavalry) should do well on the open field but be fairly poor against the right defenders (pikemen, archery units). Currently, horse archers are a bad choice.

The Greek Phalanx replaces both the spearman and axeman units and retains its 50% bonus against melee units and the new strength of 4. Further, it gains a 100% bonus against cavalry, just like a spearman. Its cost increases by 5 to 40 (the same as a swordsman). It, in effect, becomes both a spearman and an axemen at once.

The Redcoat unit begins with the Drill 1 promotion for free.

Navy SEALS replace both marines and paratroopers, and upon the discovery of Flight, may air drop like a paratrooper.
 
Back
Top Bottom