BTS new features in GOTM context

[Conquistador 63]

I'm a latecomer and a noob when it comes to BTS. My personal experience in it is a submitted BOTM3 and a ongoing BOTM4. However, I have read through the spoiler threads for all BOTMs so far.

That been said, I just realized I've been playing my games pretty much as a vanilla/warlords game. I must be either missing the importance to gameplay brought by BTS new features (corporations, espionage, and ... what else again?), or these (while fun) aren't all that important at all, under the GOTM competitive environment...

In my games, I still haven't touched the espionage slider or founded a corporation. That is to be expected, but I was surprised when I also failed to identify any spoiler posts emphasizing the importance of these features for the player's strategy.

Among the new stuff, the new victory condition was the most popular topic... but it was all about it being cheesy and bugged. The new random events were also debated, and their inclusion in GOTM also highly controversial.

When I recall earlier statements about BTS being the ultimate CIV game, and vanilla/warlords just a watered-down version of it, I again wonder what I'm missing here. IMHO, the leap from Vanilla to Warlords (vassal states) was far more significant than Warlords to BTS.

Of course I'm not saying we should trash it - I liked it but maybe I just didn't realize the full potential of its new features. Would someone be so kind as to enlighten me?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

It's still early days for BTS. I too have been playing a very similar style to vanilla/warlords games... but I'd say there are numerous things about BTS that make it a different beast to the earlier expansions.

I consider one of the most important implications of BTS for the GOTM series to be the modified AI behaviour. I'm still getting used to it myself, after playing many GOTM's and HOF games under Vanilla/Warlords.

We have seen a proliferation of easy city captures with AI capitals very poorly defended in the early game (warrior rush anyone?), and have also seen the warlike/defensive behaviour of some AI's come through as they whip defenders heavily making some battles much more difficult than in the Vanilla/Warlods incarnations (i.e. if you didn't kill protective Churchill early enough in BOTM1, London on a hill, archery, slavery... ).

Other subtle changes like (seemingly?) increased maintenance costs and lower starting health/happy caps have come into play aswell.

Additionally, new wonders and cheaper and improved golden ages are definitely affecting GOTM play.

Espionage may also get much more exposure in BOTM spoilers as the game difficulty level rises, since AI's will have more valuable techs to steal.

So there is more to the changes in BTS than just espionage, corporations and random events, and I'd imagine us BTS noobs still have plenty of room to improve yet.

 

[MarkM]

huh, ithought my spoilers you'll appreciate the importance of apostolic palace (either having it or making sure no one else does) in mid game, and corporations (they apparently make you able to stumble on cow awards without even trying!) and new units like guided missiles etc in late game (paired with lots of espionage points to incite revolts & helicopters & paratroopers, I took out 75% of an opponent (7 cities I think) in a single turn blitzkrieg. And besides AP there are some other important wonders (cristo redentor, mausoleum of M---, statue of zeus, etc), and how you start golden ages is totally different, and they are strategically much more important than they used to be for non-spiritual since if timed right you can avoid anarchy. Etc etc.

As to your general point -- I'm not sure what to say but that it's not like it's an entirely different game or anything. Nor should it be. Nor was Warlords either; warlords IMO had MUCH less significant changes than BTS.

 

[da_Vinci]

I think one interesting difference in BtS is the blank graphs until you have enough espionage points to see particular rivals.

Also, the inability for siege to kill, and the ability for horse to kill siege buried in the stack with flank attack has to be considered in your warfighting.

I think the most potentially interesting item is the overseas colony and its myriad implications.

Corportations may well occur too late in the game for the warmongers among us to research that far ...

My play so far has been a bit like playing warlords, but I am learning to do some things differently as I become more familiar with the new environment.

dV

 

[MarkM]

I think one interesting difference in BtS is the blank graphs until you have enough espionage points to see particular rivals.

Yes, if you get enough points in the right places (AIs) to take advantage of this, you can use it to take advantage of trades & timing of researching liberalism MUCH more effectively. dV makes good points about flanking & maintenance too, and JT's AI comment should be even closer to top of list.

Then we have the greater importance of city placement on rivers (levee) and the equally improved importance of GW (to get an early great spy). And the late game financial sabotage you can do on AI with corporations (something I've only barely scratched the surface of myself).

I guess I simply cannot more strenuously disagree with your statement that "IMHO, the leap from Vanilla to Warlords (vassal states) was far more significant than Warlords to BTS." IMO the exact opposite is true. Did vassals really change your game that much? I personally found the implementation in WL broken (because of city cultural control radius & unhappiness downsides) -- unless that was changed in the final WL patch with BTS, I honestly don't know since I stopped playing it. Plus it seems to me if you think vassals are that important, then ... isn't the introduction of colonies alone in BTS almost enough to equal that?

 

[Shillen]

I love Sid's Sushi corporation. I've had as much as +20 food in every one of my cities not to mention insane amounts of cpt and if you found it in your wall street city and have courthouses in all your cities then the increased maintenance is offset by the income from the corporation. The other corporations I'm not so sure about but I found sid's sushi in every game I can. I also tend to go for space race victory every game so I always make it far enough to found it.

Espionage I'm not so sure about how useful it is still. It's probably like religion where you can ignore religion and do fine but you can also design strategies around using it that work well too.

 

[Vynd]

The AI actively attempts Cultural victories now. Some folks have lost to them in the BOTMs, and that'll probably become more common as difficulty ramps up.

 

[kcd_swede]

The AI actively attempts Cultural victories now. Some folks have lost to them in the BOTMs, and that'll probably become more common as difficulty ramps up.

I concur. Before joining xOTM's, I always had to turn off cultural victory condition if I moved up a level, just to have any chance of winning.

 

[Jasonc]

As to your general point -- I'm not sure what to say but that it's not like it's an entirely different game or anything. Nor should it be. Nor was Warlords either; warlords IMO had MUCH less significant changes than BTS.

I skipped Warlords and went straight to BTS. Even that jump wasn't like an entirely different game. I was able to pick up playing at my same skill level, although my scores did go down significantly. It has been a lot of fun and a real challenge though. To give a point of reference that people used to playing Warlords might take for granted today, there weren't even unique buildings in Vanilla

Being a builder by nature, I think I like the addition of corporations the most. They really give you another level of specialization toward the end of the game that continues to make city development, resource acquisition and trade fun toward the end of the game. As far as BOTM is concerned, I think that corporation spamming other civs might give you a competitive advantage in certain situations, especially if the civs are low in the resources consumed.

 

[Lexad]

Espionage is very efficient if you're lagging in research or just taking another techpath. In this case GSpy is the most efficient GPerson by far.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Espionage is very efficient if you're lagging in research or just taking another techpath. In this case GSpy is the most efficient GPerson by far.

Which makes the Great Wall in BTS so powerful for the early GSpy points you get, which leads to a huge spy adavadtage early, and even seeing what your neighboors are teching so you can steal it.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Sorry, posted here in error.

 

[BLubmuz]

I find espionage a thing to take care, but for passive missions: my preferred VCs are Space Colony or Time, and the AI continue to sabotage what they can, just to slow you down.

For both those conditions i find Mining Inc precious: to increase production for the SS, or to increase production in a city that will produce research.

In time victories i avoid Sushi, for the risk of expanding borders and accidentally reach the dom limit or of a cultural victory. I prefer Cereal mills, and sometimes for SC Std Ethanol, but often it does not worth the time.