[BtS] Rise of Mankind

enaceo · Sep 8, 2007

Yes the resources are visible once you discover their tech (or you can see them from the start I think , but the display all resources button shows them if that's what you want to know) . About the maps - what do you mean you can't find giant maps ? I don't think there are any scenarios with giant size but the quick play and the custom game have the big maps.
I usually play on Terra type maps but I guess any type is fun with this mod.

Also , zappara, one more thing - like some other people said - please make sulphur spawn more often...yesterday I played a very long game with a friend of mine on the internet and there was only one single sulphur resource on the whole map!

nagz · Sep 8, 2007

Thanks for info...enaceo.. however i was thinking if there is any earth maps (pref huge/giant) which this mod will be enjoyed upon for eg. i started a game on earth18 (civ 4) map which only has regular resources and ROM resources like sulphur, cotton, salt are not visible/available.

This a great and exciting concept ...enjoying it so far...also any one can fill me in if there are any indian units available or any thoughts on new diverse units.....

Cheers!!!

zappara · Sep 8, 2007

enaceo said:
Also , zappara, one more thing - like some other people said - please make sulphur spawn more often...yesterday I played a very long game with a friend of mine on the internet and there was only one single sulphur resource on the whole map!

Yup, sulphur amount has been fixed for next version. There's plenty of sulphur resources in my test game and I was also thinking about finding new sulphur resources from squares where happens volcano eruption.

About maps - I was hoping to add at least Earth map to the mod but it's been time issue, just haven't had enough time to do everything. Some Civ4 map types also don't add new resources (Great Plains for example) but most should work. Those who like to try giant and gigantic map sizes, I recommend using high end computer.

This morning I found something odd when I was looking promotion upgrade tree - the game misplaced some promotions to wrong places even though all promotions had correct requirements in xml file. So I re-arranged them again in xml file so that all those promotions which require other promotions are after their all prereqs. This fixed promotion upgrade tree. I suspect this to have been one possible reason for those random CTDs.

mrhyms said:
"Added: Submerged Town Platform"

Nice. Is it possible to actually mod in underwater cities?

Also - whatever happened to the terraforming from an earlier version?

Kepp up the TOP class work Zap!

M

I don't think it's possible to make underwater cities. I loved that feature in SMAC and it could be great in Civ too.

Terraforming and creating new forests haven't been added yet. I wasn't sure if AI players would know how to use them.

Kalimakhus said:
@Ironmann

This is a good idea! There is no need for a shrine to be a wonder to limit it to one instance globally. It already requires the holy city of a religion, and there can be only one such holy city anyway.

Good point but if I change them not to be wonders anymore, player could build it several times in Holy City with Great Prophets and it can't be limited to 1 per player since then it would be limited to National Wonder limit. Hmm.. there might be another way, just have to add python code that doesn't allow it to be built again if it's already in holy city.

sag35 said:
This is an awesome mod, you did a very good job, i enjoy it a lot, i really wish it would be in french too.

Someone would have to make the translation to french.. I don't know french language.

If someone translates all the text elements, I could include it to the mod.

mrhyms said:
The Heavy Tank M26 starts with the usual tanky-blitz promotion, but only gets 1 move per turn so this seems pretty redundant.

Am I missing something?

I used settings for those units from Modern Warfare mod and I think the idea with Heavy tanks were that they have very high attack power but are slower than other tanks.

Jazzbo said:
My apologies if this has already been suggested (I'm too tired to read ALL the posts), but I would love to see the ol' radar towers that were in (I think) Civ III (again, tired). These were excellent strategic improvements to extend your civ's safety net. Miss them a lot. Is it possible to bring them back (or if someone has already done that, include in this mod)?
Great mod btw, love it.
Thanks

I think sentry (and sensors) promotions cover the effect of Radar tower. I did see mod for warlords that added improvement that works like radar tower but I have no idea if it could be combined to BtS mod. Might be difficult to add since it would require some changes to AI too.

Kyrion said:
Hey this mod looks great! keep up the good work, but be careful not to add too many units, buildings, civics, resources, etc. - it might lead to some frustration and confusion i also suggest adding "secularism" or "state atheism" religion civic (unhappiness from religions), creating an inquisitor unit (or something) that can remove religions from a city, and adding unhappiness from non-state religions with "organized religion" and "theocracy".

Those are good ideas. Idolatry was one choice that I was considering to add to religion civics. Inquisitor unit will be added at some point, it requires modifying python files (haven't had time to check how it's coded exactly) so I have delayed adding it.

Argroww said:
What is the point of the Blood Cult tech, it doesn't seem to do anything or lead anywhere?

Ooh, hang on, there's something I'd like to see (not sure if it already exists) upgradeable terrain improvements, e.g. instead of a mine become a shaft mine after 60 turns you'd have to research the appropriate tech and then use a worker to improve the mine manually. Perhaps to add to that there would also have to be a turn limit so that unlike railroads you simply cannot auto-build the improved version, you have to wait a few turns first (basically givign the idea that a mine works upon the surface resources first and then needs to be changed to access deeper "purer" resources)

There was going to be another building besides Aztec's sacrificial altar and possibly one civic option for Blood Cult tech.

I had upgradeable buildings in mod's Warlords version (used DLL from CCCP mod). That kind of change requires new xml tags and SDK changes to DLL file. I'm not able to do that kind of modifications so there probably won't be those kind of improvements in BtS version since the dll file from warlords version isn't compatible with BtS.

Samael said:
It's a shame that, as it stands, there's still a few techs that don't lead anywhere or that you can totally avoid (I've never needed Sculpture yet, if I recall correctly... how about it gives a bonus to Marble Quarries? That might be a bit more enticing).

I'm not so in favour of the 'manual upgrade' side of it, but I am in favour of developing with techs (beside the +1 hammer bonus - afterall, a scrape mine wouldn't instantly gain the bonuses of an Industrial Age mine the second you have the tech... speaking of which, does Steam Power improve mines? Didn't they use steam generators to remove water from mines?). Additional upgradeable improvements might include Tenements (Industrial Age Town improvement; more money and possibly food to represent how crammed in people would be, but also produces some health and happiness issues?), Vineyard (to replace winery and maybe attach to some other vine-based plant resources?), Dam (upgrade of water mill?), um... something for Workshop? Unhealthier but more productive? I've probably gone on a bit too much...

When more religions are added to the mod, sculpture will be used for one religion. Mod is also still missing Culture values civic category so there might be one civic option from sculpture as well.

Yes, IRL miners did have steam pumps to remove water from mines. This effect was planned and I think I added it to one early industrial era tech.. just can't remember from memory to which tech. If it isn't there, I'll have to fix it

In mod's warlords version I had Suburb upgrade for town on modern times. It added commerce and food to city. Since currently it's impossible to do upgradeable improvements in the mod (requires SDK changes), I haven't converted yet this improvement to BtS version. Those other ideas for improvement upgrades are good though but if I add them, only way to make them work is to let them upgrade automatically after x turns just like cottages.

xbeanerx said:
Well i have had it and Now im fed up!!! i can Not complete one full game i took 2 weeks of work for this mod and i can NOT complete a game to many crashes Its frustating all these hours wasted just to end up CTD i found that in diffrent games difrrent things cause crashes.I notice that sometimes world wonders cause crashes like my current problem when i develope the statue of liberty CTD.Sometimes other things like tech or world wonders cause CTD this is a real bad set up.I really like what you did with this game and Mod but it is Not worth it having to many CTD and I am almost to tears i was having a perfect game set at the highest difficulty level my dreams of world domination came to and end with the Damm game crashing R.I.P Rise of mankind agust 29 2007 to sept 07.2007 may "GOD"have mercy on your soul!!

Has any one been able to complete the game all the way through the future tech?????

oh my god, you played the mod straight 2 weeks?!? :eek:

Did you notice the mod's version number? it's currently 0.9.3 and I still consider it as beta version. The mod is not yet finished and of course there might be bugs (of which some might cause CTDs) and I try to fix all issues so that we will have version 1.0 ready some day. I'm sorry to hear that you had those CTDs. What you perhaps could do is tell me what happened in-game just before those CTDs, it might help to identify what's causing it and I could fix it for future versions.

Hangly Man said:
There should be a blood cult civic. Slaves captured plus sacrificial altar means culture and happiness for all!

Was planning something like that.

How people would feel about Cannibalism civic option (I'm planning those culture values civics)? Since there is still in real life some native people left who used to be cannibals...

Kalimakhus · Sep 8, 2007

@Zappara

About upgradeable improvements and the SDK. If you have the source code of the Warlords version I can try making it BTS compatible. Actually the code didn't change that much so it can be an easy task.

In such case it would be quite better to move the buildings replacements (arcology buildings and harbor- port -etc.) to the SDK and add some tag to the buildings info (something like <Replaces>). This will allow a very good boost of performance. The python function cannotConstruct is a very time consuming one (This is why it is disabled by default in BTS). What happens is that the code in the function is called once for every single city in game. On a giant map in modern era this is huge. Also python code is crawling slow. Even for events python is not so good for if its okay to handle them for the human player as it will always be faster than player's response, still events are handled for AIs as well and this what gives this long "Waiting for other civs" at the end of every turn.

I am saying this because Rise of Mankind is indeed a unique mod. It is actually more so than the one first think when he first plays the mod. When playing for enough time one discovers that everything has been tweaked and modified in a way that makes the mod a different experience that BTS. Such a great effort shouldn't be wasted because of performance problems that always plague ambitious and grand mods (see Total Realism). Good use of the SDK is always a good complement of good mods (See Fall from Heaven).

mrhyms · Sep 8, 2007

"Has any one been able to complete the game all the way through the future tech?????"

Yah - myself a couple days ago. 2007 AD I finally destroyed my best-friends-for-6000 years the French in an orgy of sentinels and nanoclouds, and by golly it was fun. :king:

This is the first Epic/RoM game I've played to completion though (v0.8)

I had been getting plenty of CTD's too, so in the end had to bite the bullet and scale my games down a little. The game I finished was only (!) Giant Map vs 8 other civs : the many other goes I tried with the biggest maps and more civs ended up being too slow to play (>5 mins of "End of Turn), or ultimately CTD'ing during the computer's turn.

My rig :- has Athlon 4400+ Dual Core processor, and 3gb of Ram (although windoze only reports 2.75 gig), and dual Gefore 5900 Ultra. All latest drivers, natch.

I upgraded the ram when I got Warlords to try and solve the end of turn ridiculousness, but there's only so far brute force power can take you!

There have been a couple of CTD scenarios fixed by Solver's patch - sometimes the AI trying to make a colony can cause issues, and there are also problems with dead air units, looping explorers and the delay when using Privateers to bombard.

Any plans to incorporate some of this, Zap, or do we wait and see what the next "offficial" patch brings?

Freakwave · Sep 8, 2007

I have managed to complete a game once also. I think it was in 0.9.

I would love to know how to fix the promotions upgrade path so i can perhaps continue my latest game. Ill look for it on the forum first. (which file is it?)
The reason i discontinued playing was just these random ctd's. I havent been able to single out a cause. I looked with the help of the world builder as to whether something was being built that would cause something like it.

I dont think that the statue of Lib causes a ctd. In the same game i could complete the statue of Lib with the help of an engineer. Turn after i got a ctd, so i reloaded, this time i didnt finish the SoL and ended my turn but still i got a ctd.

Btw i added to the appropriate ships/units for all of the ages the appropriate bombard range in the civ4unitsinfos.xml file (my first succesfull mod attempt in civ4, copy and paste work but still

) if you want it i can upload it somewhere.

Kalimakhus · Sep 8, 2007

mrhyms said:
There have been a couple of CTD scenarios fixed by Solver's patch - sometimes the AI trying to make a colony can cause issues, and there are also problems with dead air units, looping explorers and the delay when using Privateers to bombard.

Any plans to incorporate some of this, Zap, or do we wait and see what the next "offficial" patch brings?

For now you can use my patch for RoM 0.9.3. It includes Solver's patch. I also has Dale's ranged bombardment, and the ability to have up to 40 civs in the game (34 civs + free slots for colonies).

You can find it here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6932

Kalimakhus · Sep 8, 2007

My last game got so boring at the late turns. It is actually my mistake. The mod itself is so much fun. The fact that I wanted to explore everything new in RoM. I chose a low difficulty to grab all the wonders I want and to build units and use then at leisure. I also played on a giant map. I ended up filthy rich with too much of everything. Future era new techs, buildings, and units became irrelevant because I didn't need them (Well there is one thing about this that belongs to RoM - I will come to this later). Turns became a burden with too many cities to decide on what they should build, and too many units to move around. Being a stubborn micro management freak I never automate anything. Turns took long to conclude but for a giant map and so much stuff this side is still acceptable compared to many other mods (vanilla and warlords). At the end I decided to end the game anyhow. I couldn't just throw the work of over 22 hours away so I set my mind on getting the nearst possible win. I had already conquered 5 rivals but there are 12 to go. I got population enough for domination but was short on land area (it is a giant map!!). But I had two legendary cities and a third that just needed a push. I set it on producing culture after building some more 50% culture buildings. (There is an additional cheap one besides the different religions cathedrals). Finally I got the cultural vectory at the end of the 19th century. Phewh.

Now remarks. Tech tree gets a little confusing starting with industrial era. Tanks dependency on oil products that need both oil and oil refinery is a good idea but limiting refineries to coastal cities only makes playing on some types of maps (Great planes comes to mind) a nightmare!!

Sulfur is too rare. I had to change the values myself for my last game. iPlayer=50 and limiting it to 2 base terrain types excluding features and river side combined with other resources competing for the same types of terrain and their iUnique values, all this leads to some thing like 1 or 2 sulfur on map. (seems that the claim that iPlayer is the minimum is not true anyway).

Civics that remove unhealthiness effects of both buildings and number of people. Too powerful. Environmentalism removing the effect of buildings only is enough. Adding no unhealthiness from population and duplicating this with another civic just removes any need to manage this area late in the game. The player only needs to be concerned with happiness which is almost negligible in the late eras with all the building and resources giving happiness and with the culture slider handy if things got bad in time of war.

Labor Union, and District Courthouse are not limited to the number they should be limited to. Also Amusement Park seems to be intended as a national wonder but it is not though it gives +1 happiness for every city. Skyscrapers may be also limited to some number. Buildings that give culture percentage bonus especially one that gives 50% (sorry can't remember its name now). Might be too powerful. A cultural win can be too easy or even forced on a player without intending to. My first legendary city actually got to almost 200,000 (this is 4 legendary cities in one), Second city was far beyond 50,000 as well. The large difference signifies that I didn't actually plan for the cultural win, I just grabbed it at the end as it was the nearest thing and it took me 5 turns to achieve it. (Low difficulty can be considered but with wonders' city limit wonders don't make a hell of a difference. Other buildings giving culture are easily built on any difficulty level and just making it to the industrial era means that you will be able to build almost anything in 3 turns max in your larger cities.

Late units and building can use a cost raise. I think Zap mentioned it himself I just confirm this under my own game settings. I also should add techs. I was 200 turns away from the games time limit and was well advanced through the Techtree. Low difficulty accounted for, still no single tech needed more than one turn at 50% research. I might have a better feedback on this with better game settings next time. (I would also aim at a spaceship victory so I would actually finish the techtree.

Not too many CTDs actually I can count only 3 none can be attributed to the mod itself as a reload and maybe a restart were always enough to get the game going. Now I still had some time ahead to go if I didn't decide to just kill the game prematurely. So I still don't know about the 20th century.

My machine is not a very good one Pentium D 3.4 GHz, 2 GB RAM, and GTX 7200 512 MB (128 on board so it actually get the rest from system memory).

Hopefully this is not only a boring AAR. Thanks again for such a great mod. I had fun every single moment.

Ironmann · Sep 8, 2007

Hey I just wondered when the next update is?
Love this mod to the bone

Btw some thing I'd would love to see in a new patch\version is

- More units (Just can't get enough

both in early age and later on)
- More Building and Wonders (And maybe turn holy wonders to non wonders of some kind or work it around to not be counted in the 3 world limit for each city)
- More techs (In all ages

)
- A big fat cigar and the best liqour to offer to Bts best modmaker aka you

- Maybe a couple of broads if youre into that too

enaceo · Sep 8, 2007

About unit and research production costs - I also think they need to get bigger . The AI just masses a lot of units and it takes hundreds (if not thousands) of years to take over just one damn town (same is true if the AI or another player is attacking you - massing defenders is very easy).

Kalimakhus · Sep 8, 2007

@Zappara

For Shrines. Buildings by default are limited to one instance per city. You don't need to implement anything in Python to prevent building two shrines for the same religion (i.e. the same building) in one city.

In fact you might think of using the new BTS tag that allows more than one instance of the same building in one city for something else. It would be fun to see what you can come-up with for this feature. I didn't see it done in any mod so far. Final Frontier doesn't count and it was just put there for its sake.

Some clever way to do it is to allow the extra instances with some conditions like a tech or something. It needs some more lines in cannotConstruct.

Empiremaker · Sep 8, 2007

This thread seems to have many different topics in it. Maybe RoM needs a forum?

Kalimakhus · Sep 8, 2007

Have the same thought in mind. Though Zappara insists that it is still in beta phase but I see it is more mature than any other BTS mod. The range of variation introduced by the mod allows for more discussion topics. I still hold myself from asking people to report about what they do to adapt their strategy for RoM (it does force you to change the way you play because of the many things that differ from the game). Many feel like sharing their AARs with others as well.

I don't know how it is done but if it would make a difference I hope someone up-there may agree with us that RoM deserves its sub-forum.

xbeanerx · Sep 8, 2007

Kalimakhus said:
Have the same thought in mind. Though Zappara insists that it is still in beta phase but I see it is more mature than any other BTS mod. The range of variation introduced by the mod allows for more discussion topics. I still hold myself from asking people to report about what they do to adapt their strategy for RoM (it does force you to change the way you play because of the many things that differ from the game). Many feel like sharing their AARs with others as well.

I don't know how it is done but if it would make a difference I hope someone up-there may agree with us that RoM deserves its sub-forum.

Hi "Kali" I agree with you!
well i am still playing RoM i have yet to finish a game all the way to the future tech do to some CTDs
I would recommend all ways try to build the paramids they unlock all goverments and could really help you advance more than the other players.
Well i have a med level system i gave 6700x2 at 3.6MHz with 3GB of DDR2 The dominator,3 74GBRaptors set up in Raid0 Striped 128k and 1000Watts PSU 1x8800GTX nvidia
and I still get lag i always play with minimum of 24 Players not including my self.
I hate playing with 16 or 18 Over 20 is so much better.
Any idea when will this RoM Mod with be complete?
Zappa Great Job this is the best Mod i everplayed i like this better than beyond the sword Friaxis should hire you!! :goodjob:

Kalimakhus · Sep 8, 2007

@Zappara

This modcomp http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237975 with some adjustment can allow buildings to be built depending on some resource or improvement in their fat cross. This can be good if you liked to balance buildings that give more happiness or healthiness. Also if you like to limit buildings that create a resource out of another.

It is and SDK component so I think it will wait for a later phase but I thought you might like to put on your list if you liked the idea.

Sword_Of_Geddon · Sep 8, 2007

help when I load this mod and start to play theres no interface! I'm using the latest patch.

enaceo · Sep 9, 2007

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
help when I load this mod and start to play theres no interface! I'm using the latest patch.

No interface ? What do you mean ? At the main-menu or in-game ? Never had this problem before (isn't there a key or option that makes the in-game interface disappear - this might be just my imagination but I think I remember something like this - maybe you pressed the key/ticked the option by mistake? )

About the subforum - I also agree , there's quite a lot to talk about here and a subforum would make it easier for zappara to read our comments/ideas by topic .
And Kalimakhus' suggestion with sharing tactics - that would also be nice (although to tell you the truth , I haven't played much of vanilla BTS :blush:

so I've based my tactics so far on this mod only ).

mrhyms · Sep 9, 2007

Kalimakhus,

thx for the combi patch - installed and trying now!

(EDIT - ARAGAHARAGHA!!! In my eagerness I installed it into the main BTS directory instead of into RoM, and now Civ4 won't even boot. Got to re-download from D2D now to install..... Curse you for making me so happy!)

Interestng that your getting such big games to work ok - what kind of delay are you seeing in later game for "End Turn"?

"Turns became a burden with too many cities to decide on what they should build, and too many units to move around. Being a stubborn micro management freak I never automate anything."

Exactly the same as me :- although towards the end I cracked and was automating production of whole continents just to try and finish things off.

Starting to think the dedicated forum idea is a good one too...

zappara · Sep 9, 2007

Here's the changelog so far for the next version:

Spoiler :

Like I said previously it will be probably next friday when I upload next patch. Still have to add some things to it (enable air units).

@Kalimakhus

Thanks for those detailed reports.

If you check changelog for next version, youl'll see that I'm (slowly) adding more upgradeable building. For that source code that you asked, you'll have to check CCCP's subforum to see if there's source available. I've never done SDK changes myself since my knowledge about programming languages is pretty limited and I got no software tools to edit source files. I wouldn't even try make SDK changes myself even if I had the software for it. So I'll have to use DLL that is made by someone else.

I'm beginning to understand python though, it's quite similar as was the script language in Morrowind. For Morrowind I created temperature "engine" with its script language to one of my mods and I think it was roughly around 20k code lines. But I'm still newbie with python so don't request complex things

By the way, Orbital Factory building can be built many times in one city (or at least it was suppose to work that way) - I used the tags for that feature but actually didn't test if it was indeed working that way.

Little about mod balance, I think it would be best if the middle difficulty setting (was it Prince) to be most balanced since it's the average difficult setting. Happiness needs more balance still. In Warlords version I tried it with removing happiness from resources when you just built improvement - happiness was given only when you had building for that resource. I guess I could try that.

Before making changes to tech/unit costs, I still need those numbers from your science/hammer production rates from different eras and with difficulty/map size/game speed info (all those affect production).

I've thought also about requesting subforum for RoM since this thread seems to be exploding pretty fast.. would be easier if different things were in different topics.

enaceo · Sep 9, 2007

Nice to see you've fixed that stuff in the new patch and you're adding those tanks and planes !
A weird thing keeps happening to me - I don't know if it's a bug or not but some leaders (or civs don't know what this thing is related to) - start with religion and education civs se to despotism ( none of the little icons are stroked with yellow but the despotism icon and description appears below them ) - this keeps happening when I play with Stalin and a friend of mine also had this . Sorry if it's already been discussed.

[BtS] Rise of Mankind

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