BTS Unaltered Gameplay Project

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I've begun by porting some infrastructure from Ruff's mod:

  • Dr. Elmer Jiggle's CustomEventManager
  • configobject (INI files)
  • RuffModControl (wrapper for configobject)
  • RuffModOptions
  • Civ4lerts
  • MoreCiv4lerts (from HOF I think)
  • Reminders
  • Raw Commerce
  • Attitude Icons
Limited testing shows that they work. The last two I had added earlier and aren't hooked up to the INI options yet.

I'll look over Great Options Mod to see how TheLopez handles configuration. Ruff's works, and it seems pretty straight-forward, so maybe there's no need.
 
Some comments on the above ...

  • the mod control thing is a direct lift from the HOF people. Suggest we use something similar but call it BUGModControl (etc)
  • I have enhanced logger a lot and reminder (some) so I suggest we lift the code from my mod for these two
  • scoreboard: I added the ability to see leader name and / or country name - check my mod for code
  • military advisors - there are at least two out there but I hated them ... they are slow and show LESS than the standard advisor (cannot see AI units)
  • great person mod has already been added to warlords (that is, the small mod to the XML that adds the type of GP to the message)
  • showinfo and alerts are two ways of doing almost the same thing - one is user initiated (show info) and one is automatic (alerts)
  • proper score graph has already been included in all versions of the game
  • disable intro movies is now an option in civ4.ini file (assuming this is designed to stop the first 3 or 4 movies at the start of the game
  • plot list enhancements - this code is AWFUL and some of these features are already in warlords (stacked units). I added the unit features 'promotion' and 'action' as stand alone items in my mod. Note: this mod re-writes some significant sections of code, not least the 'unit selection' part
  • my mod has most of the unit renaming features alerum mentioned. I also added 'borg names'

Here are some others that we might want to look at from jrayUGH Unaltered Gameplay Hodgepodge
  • combat experience counter
  • hall of fame win / loss

A friend of mine asked for the ability to add notes to units, cities or tiles (similar to excel notes). I think this is doable with an input box but don't know about the length of the string that you can add.

I have also been thinking about a mod that shows the techs that a GP will lightbulb as well as the techs the GP will lightbulb if we tech the current techs we know. I will try and post a fake screenshot to illustrate what I mean.
 
It sounds like we are jumping in here without much discussion of version control or similar. There are some files that multiple people will be working on so we need some way of knowing this and controlling it.

Also, if we really want to be able to turn these things off and on, then we need to work out the config code first and build that into each change that we make.
 
Some comments on the above ...

[*]military advisors - there are at least two out there but I hated them ... they are slow and show LESS than the standard advisor (cannot see AI units)
I hate the default military advisor as much as you hate the MODs. I think we should include them in the pack, or at least see if we can improve on it. That is the worst adviser in the game, IMO.

[*]great person mod has already been added to warlords (that is, the small mod to the XML that adds the type of GP to the message)

This one should include the artwork with the Great Person pop-up message.

[*]showinfo and alerts are two ways of doing almost the same thing - one is user initiated (show info) and one is automatic (alerts)

This should be one of those then are either/or options then.

[*]proper score graph has already been included in all versions of the game

Removed.

[*]disable intro movies is now an option in civ4.ini file (assuming this is designed to stop the first 3 or 4 movies at the start of the game

Removed.

[*]plot list enhancements - this code is AWFUL and some of these features are already in warlords (stacked units). I added the unit features 'promotion' and 'action' as stand alone items in my mod. Note: this mod re-writes some significant sections of code, not least the 'unit selection' part.

There are alot more options in this little bit then just the promo and action buttons. Is there a way to clean up the code a bit? This is a very useful MOD.

[
*]my mod has most of the unit renaming features alerum mentioned. I also added 'borg names'

I didn't include the Borg one just for the fact that I'm a Star Wars fan.:p I really like the ranking system and want to get this one added to the ones we have already... including the Borg one.... may Darth Maul take you!


A friend of mine asked for the ability to add notes to units, cities or tiles (similar to excel notes). I think this is doable with an input box but don't know about the length of the string that you can add.

Fo Shure!

I have also been thinking about a mod that shows the techs that a GP will lightbulb as well as the techs the GP will lightbulb if we tech the current techs we know. I will try and post a fake screenshot to illustrate what I mean.

I think I understand what you mean, and think this would be a great addition.


It sounds like we are jumping in here without much discussion of version control or similar. There are some files that multiple people will be working on so we need some way of knowing this and controlling it.

Yes, I saw the need for this last night too. Was trying to convince a friend of mine if he'd be willing to keep track of this, but not got a reply back from him saying yes or no.

Also, if we really want to be able to turn these things off and on, then we need to work out the config code first and build that into each change that we make.

Is what I mean by the "core" needing to be done first. This isn't going to be my strong point, so I'm leaving this to you and EF....
 
Yes, we will definitely want to use version control (sourceforge? or is someone running a cvs/subversion repo?). I jumped in and started trying stuff out simply to build some momentum (plus I wanted those things in BtS for my regular play :)), but we can add structure at any time.

Regarding PLE, I had figured you used an earlier version of it in your mod, thus the difference from the screenshots for it. Your explanation makes much more sense. Did you feel the buttons for selecting various units in the stack was not useful? I haven't tried the full PLE yet ... maybe I will just to see, but I'd like to adopt as little messy code as possible. :crazyeye:

I'm starting to think about how to provide a unified config setup. The way that Civ itself is coded makes what I'd normally do more difficult. I see in one case (CvMainInterface) you have a bunch of globals that the options screen sets, and in all other cases the classes themselves grab the options out of RuffMod. I'll probably go the latter route unless there's a technical reason not to.

When you say you've added to civ4lerts and reminders, are they all in your published version, or are these private additions? I took the ones from your latest mod as my base.

I did see the civ name / leader name options and will merge those in when I add DeadCivScoreboard.
 
I hate the default military advisor as much as you hate the MODs.

Honestly, 9 out of 10 times that I hit F5 . . . it's to see how many experience points I am from my next GG.

The notes on units/cities should be pretty easy, but how would you display it? There needs to be some sort of visual indicator so you can find the notes later.

I posted the start of an idea for displaying which GPs pop which techs based on your current known techs to the thread about GP tech preferences. It wasn't much, but a couple other people also posted their ideas and minimods for putting the info on the tech graph.

BtS now tells you which type of GP will pop a tech when you hover over it. However, there's no way to see the preferences between techs for a single GP. This would be very handy, though. Good luck coming up with something meaningful -- you'd be an instant hero to many people!
 
Quick note to say that when I am modifying existing Python files, I'm putting code changes between comments (as usual with other modpacks). I started using this format, what do you think:

Code:
# BUG submod <<
    blah blah
# BUG submod >>

Where "submod" names the modcomp (Raw Commerce, Dead Civ Scoreboard, etc) or subsystem (Options). Is this too terse?
 
Yes, we will definitely want to use version control (sourceforge? or is someone running a cvs/subversion repo?). I jumped in and started trying stuff out simply to build some momentum (plus I wanted those things in BtS for my regular play :)), but we can add structure at any time.
I've used sourcesave a little (less than 10 times) so I am familiar with this but not very experienced. Is there a free web based version?

Regarding PLE, I had figured you used an earlier version of it in your mod, thus the difference from the screenshots for it. Your explanation makes much more sense. Did you feel the buttons for selecting various units in the stack was not useful? I haven't tried the full PLE yet ... maybe I will just to see, but I'd like to adopt as little messy code as possible. :crazyeye:
I think we should look at the features of this mod and select what we want to add then code those in.

I'm starting to think about how to provide a unified config setup. The way that Civ itself is coded makes what I'd normally do more difficult. I see in one case (CvMainInterface) you have a bunch of globals that the options screen sets, and in all other cases the classes themselves grab the options out of RuffMod. I'll probably go the latter route unless there's a technical reason not to.
Ruffmod usually went back to the ini file (this was prob slow) but some features (scoreboard) used globals. Prefer globals but need to remember to set them after exiting the Alt-J option screen.

When you say you've added to civ4lerts and reminders, are they all in your published version, or are these private additions? I took the ones from your latest mod as my base.
Not civ4lerts, but did make significant changes to the logger.

Honestly, 9 out of 10 times that I hit F5 . . . it's to see how many experience points I am from my next GG.
Check my post above - this is a small mod that adds that info to the main screen.

The notes on units/cities should be pretty easy, but how would you display it? There needs to be some sort of visual indicator so you can find the notes later.
No idea - need to test this a little.

Quick note to say that when I am modifying existing Python files, I'm putting code changes between comments (as usual with other modpacks). I started using this format, what do you think:

Code:
# BUG submod <<
    blah blah
# BUG submod >>

Where "submod" names the modcomp (Raw Commerce, Dead Civ Scoreboard, etc) or subsystem (Options). Is this too terse?
Good. How will you handle ... ie where will you put the comments.

Code:
if BUG mod option is true then
   modified code
else
   original code
endif

Also, if the additions span more than one location, should include (1 of 2, etc).
 
I like the "BUG submod" idea, maybe add start and end to it. EF, would you mind uploading what you've done so far, so I can get an idea on what I we're going to be working with? At least until we get Subversion set up?
 
I've lifted the following from 12monkey's thread about plot list enhancements. This should help us get a feel for what this mod does.

============
Features :
============
The features are devided into the following chapters :
1.) Enhanced unit buttons in the plot list
2.) Mouse over info pane of the unit buttons in the plot list
3.) Unit/group selection in the plot list
4.) Plot list display modes
5.) Plot list unit filters
6.) Plot list grouping modes
7.) Plot list uprade View
8.) Plot list promotion View
9.) Move highlighter
10.) Configuration

Here are the details to those chapters:
1.) Enhanced unit buttons in the plot list

Spoiler :

Each unit button provides you now with some additional information. This makes it easier to determine what status a single unit has, without selecting it first. Following information is implemented :

a.) Health Indicator :
the colored spot in the upper left corner is displayed in a darker color, as soon as the unit is wounded. This feature can be switched off in the ini-file.

b.) Health Bar :
At the top of each unit button, a vertical stacked bar is displayed. This stacked bar indicates the remaining health points of the unit in percent. The colors of that bar can be configured in the ini-file, as well as the display itself. The default colors are green and red.

c.) Move Bar :
At the top of each unit button, below the health bar, another vertical stacked bar is displayed. This indicates the remaining movement points of the unit in percent. The colors of that bar can be configured in the ini-file, as well as the display itself. The default colors are blue and yellow.

d.) Mission Indicator :
in the lower right corner, the units actual mission is disaplyed. The following mission types are indicated :
FORT (blue) -> unit is fortified
PAT (light blue) -> unit is at air patrol
GOTO (light green) -> unit has a goto command.
EXP (dark green) -> unit is at exploring mission
HEAL (light red) -> unit is in healing mode
SEN (yellow) -> unit is in sentry mode
SKIP (light gray) -> unit is skipped in current turn
AUT-B (orange) -> worker is automized
AUT-C (orange) -> worker is automized for a city
AUT-N (orange) -> worker is automized for building a trade network
The display of this mission indicator can be switched off by ini file.

e.) Promotion Indicator :
A unit which can be promoted, is displayed with a light blue frame in the plot list. This indicator can be switched on/off in the ini file.

f.) Upgrade Indicator :
A unit which can be upgraded to any other unit, will get a small orange up-arrow in the lower left corner of its unit button. The arrow is displayed regardless if you have the money for the upgrade or not. This indicator can be switched on/off in the ini file.

2.) Mouse over info pane of the unit buttons in the plot list
Spoiler :

When you move the mouse over any unit button in the plot list, an info pane is displayed on the left side of the screen. This Info pane has been been modified in the following places :

a.) Remaining movement points :
The remaining movement points of the unit are displayed as a floating value with 1 decimal

b.) Strength + Turns-To-Heal
The current unit strenght is displayed as a floating value with 1 decimal. In case the unit is wounded a third value is displayed in brackets. This number indicates the number of rounds the units need to heal completly under the current circumstances. This circumstances takes consideration of city building (like hospital), the unit's promotion (Medic, or any other promotion with self heal abailites) the promotions of units on the same or adjacent tiles, the territory the unit is on.

c.) Specialties
The special abilites a unit gains due to a promotion are displayed in a different color than the specials it gains due to its unit type. The color can be modified in the ini file, the default color is light gray.

d.) Experiance
The unit's experience points are displayed in the following format : <curr-exp>/<needed-exp>. Where <curr-exp> is the units current experience points and <needed-exp> is the units needed experience points to get the next higher level. Both values are only displayed if the unit has an experience value > 0.

e.) Level
The unit's level is displayed in the following format. : <curr-lev>/<possible-lev>. Where <curr-lev> is the unit's actual level and <possible-lev> is the level the unit could have due to its expereience points. In other words : the first value shows the number of promotions the unit already has, the second value shows the number of promotion the unit could have. Both values are displayed, as soon as one of the values is > 0.

Because this info pane has to be reprogrammed completely new, the layout differs slighly from the built-in one. There may also be soe differences in the infromation I haven't documented herer. If so, please contact me.

3.) Unit/group selection in the plot list
Spoiler :

The selection in the plot list has also been improved by eliminating some bugs of the Civ4 standard verion :

a.) Civ4 bug : when selecting a unit on the very right the plot list is rebuild so that the selected unit is at position 10 in the plot list -> fixed
b.) Civ4 bug : under some special circumstances the scroll arrows did disappear -> fixed
c.) Civ4 bug : when selecting a unit with Alt-key pressed, all units should be selected. Because it is not possible to put units with different domain type into one group, always the first domain in the plot list is selected. -> fixed. All units with the same domain type as the selected unit will be put together into a group.

The rest of the selection method is pretty much the same as before :
- Shift : to add single units or their groups to the selected group
- Ctrl : to select all units of the same type
- Alt : to select all units of the same domain type.

Remark:
The main problem of the complete mod was to modify the unit selection in the plot list. The existing API function CyInterface.selectUnit() and CyInterface.selectGroup() are quite a mess. You have no chance to create a selection group without the function CyInterface.selectGroup(). The problem with that is, that this function doesn't have a any parameter for a unit. It directly checks the existing units on the plot and takes it decisions, so that you don't have any influence to it. Because I want that the selection groups doesn't select any unit which is not disaplyed due to one of the display filter, I had to make several crazy program climbs (you can watch them in the selectGroup() function in the PLEMainInterface.py). Main method to avoid those things is to temporarily move away (with CyUnit.setXY()) those units I don't want to be added to the group, create the group witht CyInterface.selectGroup() and then move back those "parked" units.
Due to that changes it might be possible, that there are some error in I havn't catched so far. Also, the behavior of the complete selection functionality could be slightly different to that you know. If you found any problems, just inform me, please.

4.) Plot list display modes
Spoiler :

To improve the display of a large ampunt of units on one plot, I added some disaply modes :

a.) Standard mode :
The units are displayed in one vertical line with scroll buttons on the right side. As already mentioned in chapter 3., the bothering bugs with the display have been eliminated.

b.) Multiline mode :
All units are disaplyed in several lines, so that there is no scrolling needed. The display starts in the lower left corner. Using this view, no scroll buttons are needed, except you have so much units on one plot, that the screen height is not enough to display them in multi line view. In this case, vertical scroll buttons (up and down arrow) are disaplyed.

c.) Vertical stacks :
Dependant on the grouping mode (see chapter 6.) some units are disaplyed in vertical stacks. You can scroll left an right with the scroll buttons. In the unit type grouping mode, units of the same type are displayed in a vertical stack, in the selection group grouping mode selection groups are displayed in a vertical stack.

d.) Horizontal stacks :
Pretty much the same as the vertical stacks with the only difference, that the stacks are horizontal oriented. You may now ask what that is for. Two reasons. First: because of the different screen ratios this option may be better than the vertical stacks (you have smaller stacks, but more lines). Second : it was fun to do it ;)

5.) Plot list unit filters
Spoiler :

There are several unit filters added. You find them next to the display mode buttons. The following filters have been implemented (the button in brackets) :
a.) Wounded untis (red cross)
b.) Healthy units (green cross)
c.) Domain filter air units (plane)
d.) Domain filter sea units (ship)
e.) Domain filter land units (car)
f.) Domestic units (house)
g.) combat units (tank)
h.) player units (green flag)
i.) foreign units (red flag)

An active filter is displayed with a red frame. By default all filters are inactive (-> no frame). Also all filters are EXCLUSIVE filters. That means, if you press a filter button the belonging units are NOT displayed.

6.) Plot list grouping modes
Spoiler :

There are two groping modes implemented. The grouping modes have influence in the order the units are disaplyed. If a stack display mode (vertical or horizontal) is selected it also have influene, to what is displayed in a stack :

a.) Unit type grouping (the button with the 3 squares which are behind each other) default grouping mode) :
In simple words : the units are sorted as in Civ4 Standard. When the display mode is a stack mode, then units of the same type are put into one stack.
In more complex words :
The grouping is done by unit type. That means that the untis are sorted by the following order :
- Player. Order : player units, then all other players in the order of their player id.
- Domain. Order : sea, air, land
- Combat strength. Descending order(-> means strongest first)
- Unit type. Order by unit type id, descending
- Unit level. Order descending.
- Unit experience. Order descending.
- Unit ID. Order ascending. This is just added to get a reproducable sorting in case anything else isn't unique.

ATTENTION :
There is one exception for the sorting : cargo'ed units. As soon as a unit is cargo of another unit, the cargo unit is always displayed BEHIND its transporting unit. Within the cargo units, the sorting is as mentioned above. This is as in Civ4 standard, but has some effects to the stacked views modes : cargo units are displayed together with their tranport unit in the same stack, where the cargo units are on top off their transport unit.

b.) Selection group grouping (the button with the square and the triangle in brackets) :
In simple words : the units which are in the same selection group are displayed together. Also the selection groups are displayed right most wihtin their domain. When the display mode is a stack mode, then units within the same selection group are put into one stack.
In more complex words :
The above grouping is slightly changed :
- Player. Order : player units first, then all other players in the order of their player id.
- Domain. Order by sea, air, land
- Selection group : Ascending order by their internal group id.
- Combat strength. Descending order (-> means strongest first)
- Unit type. Order by unit type id, descending
- Unit level. Order descending.
- Unit experience. Order descending.
- Unit ID. Order ascending. This is just added to get a reproducable sorting in case anything else isn't unique.

Again, cargo units are displayed together with their transport units. This view is ideal to create complex selection groups.

Tip : try the "Group" grouping and create selection group by selecting single units holding the shift key down. Looks funny ;)

7.) Plot list uprade view
Spoiler :

The upgrade view (button with the up-arrow) can be used, to get a clear overview about the units which can be upgraded. It also provides a simple method to upgrade a bunch of units without selecting each unit first.
When you press the button only units which can be upgraded are displayed in one line. If you also have a stack view active (important!!!), above each unit its possible upgrades are dispalyed. The upgrade buttons are disable (displayed, but you can't push them) you don't have enough money to perform the upgrade.
By pressing one of those upgrade buttons, the belonging unit is upgraded to that type. Usually that results in that the unit disappears from the view, because in ost cases only one upgrade is possible. If you press the ctrl-key when pressing an upgrade button all units on that plot are upgraded, when pressing the alt-key all player units are upgraded. If you run out of money during those multi upgrades, it simply stops doing it (as it is now in Civ4).
By moving the mouse over an upgrade button, a special info pane is displayed on the left side of the screen. It provides you with the unit type related info of the upgrade and with three values in brackets, seperated by a slash. The three values have the following meaning:
- costs to upgrade one unit
- costs to upgrade all units on the plot (hold down ctrl-key)
- costs to upgrade all play units (hold down alt-key)
If one of the values exceeds your current budget, it is displayed in red, otherwise in green. The colors can be modified in the ini-file. Of course, those multi-upgrades only upgrades the units of the same unit type. eg. all bombers or all german tanks.

8.) Plot list promotion view
Spoiler :

This view (button with the "star" on it) is very similar to the upgrade view. It displayes only units which can be promoted. If a stack view is active, above each unit its possible promotions are displayed. By pressing such a promotion button, the promotion is performed and the display is refreshed. This could result in that the unit disappears from list because there are no more promotions possible, or that new promotions are displayed if the experience points of the units does allow that.
You can use the "level" in the unit info pane to check how much promotions are possible. (see chapter 2.)

9.) Move highlighter
Spoiler :

When you hold down the alt-key, hover the mouse over a plot list button, the plots the unit can reach with its remaining movement points are highlighted. For that I implemented my Move Highlighter mod. Remark : the standard version of the move highlighter which highlights the move area when you select a unit is NOT implemented. THis can be done seperatly. Refer to the related thread for that, please.

10.) Configuration
Spoiler :

The PLE come now with a INI-file. Several above mentioned features can be switched on/off in this ini file. Also some colors can be adjusted and some key parameters of mouse over info can be changed. Just have a look in the file, everything is documented.



Summary

1.) Enhanced unit buttons in the plot list - I lifted promotions and actions and added these to my mod
2.) Mouse over info pane of the unit buttons in the plot list - is this an improvement?
3.) Unit/group selection in the plot list - already in warlords to some extent
4.) Plot list display modes - never used any of the filters - are they any good?
5.) Plot list unit filters
6.) Plot list grouping modes
7.) Plot list uprade View
8.) Plot list promotion View
9.) Move highlighter - there is a move highlight mod 12m mentions - we should maybe look at that (thread - looks good). It sounds interesting - highlight a unit and the tiles it can reach are highlighted.
10.) Configuration - yes, got it.
 
What I'll do is take a look at the latest version that came out, and see how it compares to BTS. I'll then go over what I think we should add, and you guys can go from there. Since it's configurable I'd like to add all options, and let the player choose if they want to use it or not, but if it'll make things too messy, we can always pick and choose.
 
I think you guys could consider making this mod under the WoC umbrella, It aims to make a flexible mod package that can be switched between different states easily. These states would be as varied as any current mod and a common pool of modular goodies would be shared by all with each team able to cherry pick the bits it likes along with 'core' assets of its own. The Dll will be based on CCCP with all effects latent until explicitly activated. It would be quite easy to create an unaltered game play mod out off this and you guys could bring your own extensive skills in Python UI moding and in game option controls to the project, a win win situation.
 
Impaler[WrG];5770434 said:
I think you guys could consider making this mod under the WoC umbrella, It aims to make a flexible mod package that can be switched between different states easily.
Sorry for being a bit slow, but what is WoC?
 
Here is what I have so far, and keep in mind the core will be redone. This is just to test out that some of the mods work fine in BtS. Also, some options aren't hooked up to the options screen.

Just unzip the file (ignore the file comment if you see it) and place into your My Games\BtS directory. You should rename your existing CustomAssets directory. The INI file should live in the same directory, sibling to CustomAssets.

ALT-K brings up the options screen. I was thinking of making that Alt-O to match civ's style of ctrl/alt relatedness.
 
Impaler, I read over the site and it looks like a great ambitious project! The main thing that stuck out to me is that WoC is about gameplay mods (not that it has to be) -- modding the XML and SDK.

Our project is specifically about keeping the core gameplay the same -- modding only the interface via Python and art (in a separate mod?). There would be no real need to attach options to saved games, and I'd really prefer the options screen to be in the game rather than outside it (a necessity for WoC).

All that doesn't mean we couldn't do as you propose, of course.

The main sticking point is that the way the Python code is written by Firaxis makes modularity pretty much impossible. The code for Dead Civs Scoreboard and Attitude Icons modify the block of code in MainInterface. Sure, they don't touch the same lines, but they are but 2 of probably 10 or so other mods that touch CvMainInterface.py. I don't see a realistic way to make them each modular.

Instead, our idea is to add all of them in, and make them individually enabled in the options screen. Having said that, I guess that's pretty much what WoC is doing. You'd download one installer with all the content for ViSa and WWI SF&B (just examples) and then select which are used when you run the game.

Yeah, I guess that is pretty much the same end-goal. The tricky part is that with Python everyone's touching the same files whereas with WoC everyone creates their own XML files that remain separate. Am I understanding correctly?
 
I'll replace "<<" and ">>" with "start" and "end". However, while having "1/2" would be truly excellent, this is prone to error when making updates and might cause further bugs because you thought you had every change. Using a common tag at the start makes doing search really easy.

I'm going with

Code:
# BUG - mod - start

# BUG - mod - end

and always putting the comment at the far left column. When it needs to optionally replace existing code, I'll do it how Ruff showed.
 
ALT-K brings up the options screen. I was thinking of making that Alt-O to match civ's style of ctrl/alt relatedness.
Alt-O is taken "ALT+O = Change perspective". What was wrong with Alt-J :rolleyes:
 
This idea was just suggested, so I added it. It may make the scoreboard too cluttered.
Is that info available on some other screen? If not, then it is additional info.

I would also like to include an alert when a AI goes "we have enough on our hands already" - this is an indication that the AI is going to war. You gather that info when you ring up the AI and ask it for something - one of the red messages is "we have enough on our hands already". Can you pick that info up with python?
 
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