Buce01: The Slavemaster

[Bucephalus]

The galley sank, but the local deals haven't changed at all. How much of a hurry are we to trade?

We should trade before Iroquios obtain Theology, so now would be a good time.

 

[Bucephalus]

Sound reasons. I think we should generally give precedence to Libraries, though:

* Most cities are small enough that the boost from the Temple won't be needed for 20-30 turns.
* Libraries cost us 40 shields (Scientific), Temples cost 60.
* Markets currently give the same happiness boost that Temples would give.

In the long-term, of course, we'll want both to avoid culture flips. For now, I think a few Libs are the better bargain for many cities.

If the cities are small, a library won't have an effect until more tiles are being worked.

In the core, Aquaducts (where needed) are a bigger priority than Mkts, though Mkts also have a high priority there.

 

[Elephantium]

If the cities are small, a library won't have an effect until more tiles are being worked.

On research, no. On culture, yes.

At what point do you think they start to make a difference on research? It would be nice to have a quantifiable standard to evaluate whether a Lib is worth it.

In the core, Aquaducts (where needed) are a bigger priority than Mkts, though Mkts also have a high priority there.

There's one city building a mkt, stalled at size 6. I'll switch that to a duct tonight.

I'll also trade for Theo and Invention.

 

[CivActuary]

At what point do you think they start to make a difference on research? It would be nice to have a quantifiable standard to evaluate whether a Lib is worth it.

I always thought one rule of thumb was that if the city is producing 10 uncorrupted beakers then it is worth it to build a lib.

 

[Elephantium]

I traded for Theo + Invention. Shaka knows Gunpowder.

And of course, Shaka learned Education on the IT. Should we keep researching it, or do we switch to Printing Press in hopes of using it as trade bait?

 

[Bucephalus]

I traded for Theo + Invention. Shaka knows Gunpowder.

And of course, Shaka learned Education on the IT. Should we keep researching it, or do we switch to Printing Press in hopes of using it as trade bait?

It's impossible to answer that question accurately without more information.

For example:

What did the deal for Invention cost us?

How close are we to the making contact with the other continent?

Do Hittites know Gunpowder?

How many turns to research PP/Invention/GP?

What is the gpt on zero science?

........and any number of other variables.

If you post a save I can look at it and comment before you resume (assuming that you've paused here).

 

[Elephantium]

It's impossible to answer that question accurately without more information.

For example:

What did the deal for Invention cost us?

How close are we to the making contact with the other continent?

Do Hittites know Gunpowder?

How many turns to research PP/Invention/GP?

What is the gpt on zero science?

........and any number of other variables.

If you post a save I can look at it and comment before you resume (assuming that you've paused here).

Sorry I didn't post more detail

Yep, I paused.

The trades:
Buy Theo from Shaka for Lit+63gpt+111g.
Buy Invention from Hiawatha for Lit+Theo+22gpt+118g.
Sell Lit to Murray for 3gpt+16g (all he has)
Sell Lit to Hammy for 5g (all he has - and better to us than to another AI)

Hittites don't have Gunpowder, IIRC, and it's now 12 turns to research Education.

 

[Bucephalus]

I suggest that we go zero science for now.

1) We still have a number of library builds incomplete;

2) There is little point in researching techs that are already in the public domain - ultimately it will be cheaper to buy them;

3) We haven't yet made contact with the other continent(s); until we do we won't know which is the optimum research path for brokering.

That should be our priority now; I suggest that you should rush those galley builds in Miletos and Ithaca - there is no advantage in waiting 9 - 10 turns for galleys that can be rushed for 80 and 72 gold respectively.

Continue with that policy until contact is made; it shouldn't take too long - we only need to avoid sinking twice.

We will have a free hand as broker until Navigation is researched so it's money well spent.

I would also switch the harbour build in Syracuse to a galley, and rush that (60g).

I think that we should move the MI stack from Ephesus to somewhere more central (Corinth or maybe Rhodes); we are a bit out of position if Mursilus gets frisky.

 

[Elephantium]

Pre-turn:

Switch citizens in Etreria to avoid food wastage. The extra

food gets used by Ellipi instead.
Artemesium - growth
Sparta stops working the cow, switching to a mined grassland

instead.
Thermo picks up the cow, growth in 6.
Megara - Lib in 2
Phocaea - Lib in 4

Shaka will sell Theo for Lit+39gpt+543g or Invention for

Lit+43gpt+539g
Murray wants Lit+55gpt+532g for Theo, Lit+59gpt+538g for Inv
Hiawatha wants a lot more than *that* for Invention. He

could be researching Lit.
Ham doesn't know anything useful to us.

IT:

Babs win one, lose one vs. Iroquois that I can see.
Spoiled peanuts! Our galley was lost

Turn 1 (460 AD):

WTH, there are units on automove! A slave and a curragh were both on go-to.
MM and worker turns. The curragh ends its turn in the sea square (I sent it there after looking at the suicide lane).

Shaka: no change
Murray: no change
Hiawatha: Lit+59gpt+538g.

Make the trades. Buy Theo from Shaka for Lit+63gpt+111g.
Buy Invention from Hiawatha for Lit+Theo+22gpt+118g.
Sell Lit to Murray for 3gpt+16g (all he has)
Sell Lit to Hammy for 5g (all he has - and better to us than to another AI)
Shaka has Gunpowder, so I'm going to start research on Education. At 50% science, it will take us 15 turns (+28gpt).

IT:

Pharsalos: Temple->Library
Megara: Lib->Temple (went from 9gpt to 10gpt total commerce, 3 to 4 beakers, corruption remained constant at 4 gold).
Ephesus: Temple->Library
Egypt completes the Sistine Chapel.

Turn 2 (470 AD):

Do some MM.
Switch Ellipi back to Temple - now it's growing so fast that we'll need the happiness soon!
Switch a few Mkts to Ducts in towns that are wasting food.

DARN IT! Shaka learned Education on the IT. So much for our research strategy.

URG. Civ froze my computer on Turn 5, so I lost my notes. There wasn't much to record. Several cities built ducts or temples, and I switched cities who just finished ducts to mkts. Our curragh and galley both sank before getting as far as the pioneer who revealed culture borders on the other continent.

And since I've had the save for quite a while now, I'm going to cut my turnset short. I'm annoyed at Civ for freezing, so I don't really want to continue playing right now.

 

[Bucephalus]

WTH, there are units on automove! A slave and a curragh

were both on go-to.

The curragh ends its turn in the sea

My bad! Sorry, I use them within my own turns and obviously misjudged when they would end; though, you cannot set a go-to that ends on a sea tile......

And since I've had the save for quite a while now, I'm going

to cut my turnset short. I'm annoyed at Civ for freezi ng,

so I don't really want to continue playing right now.

Are you able to take it CivA?

 

[CivActuary]

Yes, I will likely have some time over the holiday weekend to fit it in, we are not travelling but have a couple kid activities to go to around town. Consider this a got it and I will play over the next couple days.

You want I should play the normal 10 turns or finish up tusker's set in addition to my own and do 15?

Goals for the turnset would seem to be infrastructure, attempting to reach the other continent, and keep an eye out for trades. Any further aims?

 

[Bucephalus]

You want I should play the normal 10 turns or finish up tusker's set in addition to my own and do 15?

If you can, you may as well. Thanks CivA.

Goals for the turnset would seem to be infrastructure, attempting to reach the other continent, and keep an eye out for trades. Any further aims?

I think that about sums it up.

 

[CivActuary]

Sounds like a plan then.

 

[Elephantium]

My bad! Sorry, I use them within my own turns and obviously misjudged when they would end; though, you cannot set a go-to that ends on a sea tile......




Are you able to take it CivA?

Oops, that wasn't as clear as it should have been. The go-to ended on the last coastal square before entering the suicide lane; I looked at the squares and thought that ending in the sea tile was better than waiting a turn and ending that one in an ocean tile.

 

[CivActuary]

Pre-Turn Strategy:
As stated: Infrastructure, attempting to reach the other continent, and keeping an eye out for trades

OOB:
56 Slaves
1 Warrior (1r)
1 Archers (1e)
3 Horseman (3v)
27 Hoplites (25v/2e)
21 Medieval Infantry (21v)
4 Galleys

State of the Empire:
Athens (7) grows in 9, Cathedral in 7
Thermopylae (7) grows in 1, Cathedral in 15
Corinth (6) grows in 4, Market in 15
Delphi (6) grows in 8, Aquaduct in 6
Knossos (5) grows in 2, Library in 6
Sparta (6) grows in 1 (but capped at 6), Aquaduct in 6
Pharsalos (5) grows in 9, Library in 3
Argos (4) grows in 6, Library in 2
Ephesus (4) grows in 7, Library in 5
Thessalonica (6) grows in 1, Market in 13
Eretria (6) grows in 1, Market in 17
Gortyn (3) grows in 10, Temple in 12
Artemisium (4) grows in 3, Library in 5
Rhodes (5) grows in 1, Library in 6
Troy (2) grows in 15, Library in 6
Ithaca (4) grows in 6, Harbor in 18
Mycenae (4) grows in 13, Temple in 10
Phocaea (3) grows in 3, Temple in 20
Sicyon (3) grows in 6, Temple in 3
Ellipi (5) grows in 3, Temple in 9
Megara (3) grows in 1, Temple in 17
Marathon (4) grows in 1, Market in 22
Miletos (4) grows in 7, Temple in 28
Syracuse (2) grows in 5, Galley in 13
Mytilene (4) grows in 4, Temple in 11
Halicarnassus (3) grows in 6, Harbor in 59
Pergamon (4) grows in 4, Temple in 16
Tegea (2) grows in 2, Temple in 37

So we are building
2 Aquaducts
2 Cathedrals
1 Galley
2 Harbors
7 Librarys
4 Markets
10 Temples

Everyone is up Monarchy, and the Zulu are also up Education and Gunpowder.
We have 944 gold in the bank and are making 186gpt


PreTurn
CAII says Ellipi is about to riot. Hire a taxman.

IBT
Hittite workers leave our territory.
The Iroquois tell us to get lost, our galley seems to bother them. We'll pay dearly the next time yada yada yada.
Iroquois offensive stack (3 MIs and a LB) moving N through Hittite territory toward Babylon

510 AD Turn 166 (1)
MM Eretria and Thessalonica to prevent riots
Just to explore the cost of Education and Gunpowder (No way I'm paying monopoly prices for either) and establish a baseline when the other continent is contacted.
Currently - Education is 150gpt and 1110g, Gunpowder is not available at any price.
Rush the Syracuse galley for 96g. At 208gpt now we can afford it.

IBT
See a bunch more Iro forces headed N
Argos: Library --> Market (due in 17)
Syracuse: Galley --> Galley (due in 15)
Get some cultural expansions

520 AD Turn 167 (2)
The Hittites have learned Gunpowder. Check the price - Zulu will now give it to us for 51gpt and 1239g. Hittites will part with it for 69gpt and 1231g. We could buy Education from the Zulu and trade that around, but even then, the Hittites probably would not have a whole lot to give to us for it. Babylon won't even give us gpt for Theology, so they have nothing. The iron deals run out in 3 turns - I might try again then, or when we make contact.

IBT
Iros still moving units N
Pharsalos: Library --> Market (due in 15)

530 AD Turn 168 (3)
1st galley heads out into the ocean
Moving around working the terrain. We are pretty well improved - good work.

IBT
Iros moving N - and are tresspassing. A couple MI on the mountain near Ellipi.
An Iro Pike defends against someone unseen, successfully.
Bab lands a spear on the Iro island
Shaka demands 91g from us - we are weak compared to him and outnumbered - I give in, since it's only 91g.
Sicyon: Temple --> Market (due in 50)

540 AD Turn 169 (4)
mm Corinth to prevent riot - hire a taxman. Decide against raising the slider, we've onlt a few problems with happiness, which will be cured by some builds.
1st galley survived the IBT, moves forward to where all prior attempts failed. 2nd poised to shoot the gap.

IBT
More Iro units enter our lands around Ellipi
Iro Pike loses to Bab MI
Knossos: Library --> Market (due in 13)
Artemisium: Library --> Aquaduct (due in 15)
Ephesus: Library --> Market (due in 20)
Rhodes: Library --> Cathedral (due in 20)

550 AD Turn 170 (5)
1st Galley survives!!!!!
We contact the Portugese! They have Monarchy, but we are up on them Lit, Monotheism, Feudalism, and Engineering. No help here.

Stopping here for the night. We have some Libraries on line - at 100% sci Education would take 5 turns (with us losing 100+. Trades are the same as the have been. The iron deals are now over too (they are being continued but we could cancel at any time), so it may be time to try and trade around again.

>>FILE<<

 

[Miles Teg]

It's not worth it to research education. Not if it's already researched. I'm personally for swapping a tech or two with Portugal for Monarchy. We don't need it though. I'd comment on the rest of the turnset, but it's all well done.

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice work, CivA.

Couple of comments:

I don't know how it survived my purge but lose that reg Warrior.

Good decision caving to Shaka - war on our terms is the mantra, particularly now we have met the other continent; to act as broker we need to be at peace.

If many core cities have finished infastructure, it would be a good idea to end one of the Iron deals and build up the military again; use your best judgement which one to end.

Definitely don't part with any techs until you have met whoever else is on that continent; Portugal may not be typical in it's tech level, but if it is, whatever you trade to them will be traded on before we can do it.

Try and get another galley across to go counter to whichever way the first is going around; the quicker we meet the others the longer our period of brokering will last.

 

[CivActuary]

war on our terms is the mantra

Ironic and prophetic you say this, Buce.

Returning you to your regularly scheduled programming...

Find the rWarrior, wake him and move 1 turn to Mycenae - by disbanding there the 2 shields will eliminate the overrun and get the temple in 1 less turn.

IBT
Portugal gives us the old "your galley is annoying us" bit.
The Iroquois end our spice+15gpt for silk deal. by upping the gpt to 19 we can continue it. I say yes - we are in for some peace turns, it's only 4 more gpt. Mr. Advisor - make it so!
Iro MI kills a Bab MI, is in turn killed by another Bab MI.
Sparta: Aquaduct --> Market (due in 13)
Delphi: Aquaduct --> Cathedral (due in 18)
Troy: Library --> Market (due in 34)
The Zulu have started on Copernicus' Observatory. They are a bit ahead.
Galley#2 lost trying to cross.

560 AD Turn 171 (6)
rWarrior disbanded, temple goes from 4 to 3 turns.
Our successful galley (renamed the Serapis in honor of its' achievement) heads S into Orange waters and we meet the Ottomans. Osman is up Monarchy, Education, and Gunpowder. We can now purchase education straight up from both Shaka and Osman for 1789g and 1775g, respectively.
3 more galleys set to try and cross next turn

IBT
Osman wants to trade Monarchy for 1110g. Yeah, no thanks.
Iro MI kills the Bab MI. Iro units heading into Babylon.
Zulu galley coming into the peninsula area.
Athens: Cathedral --> Wealth for a couple turns until I decide to take our iron back, since no more improvements exist we need.

570 AD Turn 172 (7)
mm Sparta which is about to riot.
Serapis heading S, 3 more galleys set off into danger to follow in its' footsteps.

IBT
Ottomans dislike our galley.
Iro MI attacks and loses against someone unseen, a 2nd wins and moves into the fog of Babylon. A 3rd MI defends against something and wins.
Bab galley sinks an Iro galley.
Zulu galley lands a Longbow next to Sparta
Ellipi: Temple --> Market (due in 20)
All 3 galleys sink. What luck.

580 AD Turn 173 (8)

Okay, I need the team's input. I am certain that the Zulu mean war, even landing with only 1 unit, but next to an undefended city it is classic AI aggression.

We could issue a boot order, it would most certainly lead to war, even if not I think they will declare on the IBT.

Here is what I would propose.

- I think we need to take back our iron from Babylon, it is not involved in a lux deal like the one we are giving to the Hittites. It's going to spell doom for Babylon against the Iros, but we need it. Maybe they'll be smart and make peace, so we can take their cities later.
- Move the Hops from Thessalonica and Thermopyle to Sparta - 1 might fall against a Longbow, 2 will keep the city until we get an offensive unit up there (there of course, are none within striking distance).
- Switch some builds to military after we get the iron.
- We have enough gold I believe to get the Iros and Hittites into a war against Shaka, this could provide a cushion. Otherwise the Zulu I think could bribe them in, and our armed forces might not be able to handle such an alliance. Do we want this?

I will wait to move on.

>>FILE<<

 

[Bucephalus]

"There is no security on this Earth, only opportunity".

Since Shaka seems hell-bent on a fight, lets take the opportunity of a free tech.

He will sell GP for 102gpt; I suggest we make that deal then ask him politely to leave - we can't give a boot order this turn.

We still have 8 turns on a per turn deal with him, so we will be saving plenty of gold.

Move the Hoplites to cover Sparta; if, as expected, he DOW's the next IBT, we should end both Iron deals; Babylon are finished anyway so don't shed any tears over them. If he doesn't declare, issue a boot order.

Re-establish the Iron deal with Hittites, incorporating an alliance in to it; we should still get Incense from them.

Make an Embassy with Hiawatha, and buy an alliance with gpt.

The only Zulu units we are likely to see will come from the sea, so shuffle the troops accordingly; it would be prudent to build a few Knights if possible, but don't stop building our infastructure entirely.

As you meet more Civs on the other continent, you might be able to acquire Chemistry at an affordable price, and trade with Mursilis for Education.

Beware leaving empty cities near Bab units - Shaka may ally them; actually, it might be best to give a boot order.

What does the team think?

 

[Elephantium]

We could also use our Salt in our negotiations with Hiawatha. Do we need to be building Muskets, or are our Hoplites still going to be enough vs. the occasional Longbow or Knight?

Also, we can afford both GP and Education - it takes about 210 gpt. Easy money.