Build Scout First on Diety?

[Carazycool]

Diety players, do you always build a scout first when playing on Diety?

 

[Resipsa]

Yes, most of the time I build 2 scouts first on Deity, although sometimes go I scout, monument, scout

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Yes, unless archipelago type maps.

 

[consentient]

If my starting location has forests and I want to try for Stonehenge (usually gone before T30 these days) or ToA (more do-able, but still low % chance of getting it), I will go Monument-Worker, and take the Wonder bonus after opening Tradition...

Even more rarely, if my warrior hits a Tech ruin before I have to choose what to build or what to tech and I get Archery, I will build an Archer first for the early barb-hunting boost.

...but yeah, 95% of the time it's Scout-Monument-Scout-Settlers

 

[Carazycool]

If my starting location has forests and I want to try for Stonehenge (usually gone before T30 these days) or ToA (more do-able, but still low % chance of getting it), I will go Monument-Worker, and take the Wonder bonus after opening Tradition...

Can you confirm that forest chopping is subject to production % bonuses?

 

[consentient]

Can you confirm that forest chopping is subject to production % bonuses?

I don't understand your question, sorry.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

In the Brazil DCL, Acken walked his settler for 6-8 turns and started working on monument immediately after settling. I guess, it depends.

Can you confirm that forest chopping is subject to production % bonuses?

I don't think so.

 

[Resipsa]

Can you confirm that forest chopping is subject to production % bonuses?

Its not

 

[stormtrooper412]

Yeah I think it works for tile improvements only, and chopping a forest does not qualify

 

[beetle]

...but yeah, 95% of the time it's Scout-Monument-Scout-Settlers

Interesting, because I so respect how strong your play is, but if you are building two scouts, does it not have to be the case that scout-scout-monument is better than scout-monument-scout? I would love to see the maths supporting or debunking this, but I don't see how it could work out any other way! Generic optimal BO almost certainly has to be either monument-scout-scout or scout-scout-monument. And it is pretty obvious that scout first is the way to go, so that eliminate the first possibility...

That said, I am liking scout-scout-shrine much better than scout-scout-monument nowadays. Getting a pantheon ~8 turns earlier is much more noticeable to me than unlocking first SP ~8 turns earlier. Pantheon benefits get wiped out by AI so they are turn limited and early tile yields are more important than later ones. The extra culture from a very early monument becomes irrelevant after a couple SP picks.

...I will go Monument-Worker, and take the Wonder bonus after opening Tradition...

Can you confirm that forest chopping is subject to production % bonuses?

SH or ToA need hammers in addition to what you get from chops, so taking the Wonder bonus after opening Tradition makes sense when trying to get those.

 

[reddishrecue]

I rarely do. However, I used to do that often but not anymore.

 

[consentient]

Interesting, because I so respect how strong your play is, but if you are building two scouts, does it not have to be the case that scout-scout-monument is better than scout-monument-scout? I would love to see the maths supporting or debunking this, but I don't see how it could work out any other way! Generic optimal BO almost certainly has to be either monument-scout-scout or scout-scout-monument. And it is pretty obvious that scout first is the way to go, so that eliminate the first possibility...

Thanks for the compliment but it's not that strong yet. I'm less than 60% of the way to being an Acken, I think.

As for the BO, I go Monument 2nd because I open Honor most of the time and I want to get to Military Caste ASAP. The 2nd scout finds a lot less ruins but he is only intended to meet CS and find the capitals, really.

[EDIT: If the Warrior finds a Culture ruin, I often go Scout, Scout, but that's not consistent, really.]

 

[mbbcam]

Just for information, I thought I would add that I noted in another thread that in one of his videos, tommynt built four scouts first. He explained his reasoning later.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13599363&postcount=47

 

[Acken]

In the Brazil DCL, Acken walked his settler for 6-8 turns and started working on monument immediately after settling. I guess, it depends.

I don't think so.

That's because I considered the 6-8 turns for moving around a trade-off for an early scout so I skipped that first one. But in general I'll always make one first. Also since I had easy access to China's workers there was no reason to make a ton of scouts.

The main reason one would make scouts is if there are many ruins/CS still available and if you want extra opportunities for worker steal(and defend those).

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i pretty much always do two scouts first (if they take 5t each) because after 10 turns i can immediately start on what the first tech opens up, whether its mon/shrine/gran or a caravan is dependent on the ruins results and my Civ. if im playing Ethiopia then i'll do Stele fast as its the only monument UB, i think. but otherwise scout-scout (unless islands/archi map).

 

[Jart]

So map dependent as anything is in CiV, but generally I think it is your best roll of the die for a game start. My exception is the Maya (my favorite!). I will start with 2 atlatlists even if it delays pyramid by 4 turns on a flat start.

 

[Grendeldef]

Double scout start is my de facto std, sometimes it's scout-monument-scout but even 3x scout is more common than opening with a building. As for most it's mainly a map type issue but the more empty space the more scouts and as an avid Liberty player I want that early culture ruin to have a chance of settling 2nd city in early 30s. The early cash doesn't hurt either and it's simply way more interesting way to start a game than just clicking next.

 

[BruinBound]

Always depends on your civ and the map. If it's pangaea, 2 scouts first is usually superior, but there could be exceptions based on early unique units and maybe a few other factors. For instance, when playing as Attila I'd build another warrior first to increase chances of ruin -> battering ram upgrade.

In general:

Pangaea: Scout-Scout-Monument (Shrine instead of monument if culture ruin already found or potential for a really good pantheon)

Continents: Scout-Monument/Shrine (Same reasoning as above)

Archipelago: Monument-Worker (Switch to shrine when pottery finishes)

 

[Zyrica]

90% of my games I play Monument -> Scout -> Archers. But I'm a warmongrel and I dislike the rng in ruins.

Those 10% I don't, is usually because of some special tactics that doesn't include early warfare (Archipelago, Early Religion etc)

Thats just how I roll, I'm guessing a earlier scout increases the chanse of a lucky ruin and thus giving a better start.

 

[beetle]

I think the early monument is significant only as much as it helps unlock your opener and next two social policies noticeably quickly. Early game, you culture is roughly linear (and at what, 2cpt + any UA?), but cost for each policy is roughly doubling. Here's the numbers from wikia assuming standard map size and pace and just one city:

1st (opener) |2nd|3rd|4th|4th w/ 2nd city
25|45|90|160|205

If the monument is first in your BO, you can get your opener a few turns earlier.

If the monument is early, you can save several turns off your 1st and 2nd pick.

Monument early or late, the 3rd pick takes much longer. If you want your SP fast after the third one (opener + two picks), you really need something special, like friend status with a cultural CS.

If the SP tree has good first and second picks (like Liberty), then monument first would seem the obvious way to go.

If the more important picks are deeper (like Tradition), then early monument makes much less of a difference.

This also highlights the difficulty for me with Liberty: I can get the free worker quick or the free settler quick, but not both. The jump from 3 to 4 is already painful, and I go with the free settler, the second city bumps the cost from 160 to 205 for the worker!

In addition to delaying the finisher, opening Tradition before Liberty means that neither the free worker nor the free settler will be quick.