Build Worker, or Warrior first?

[gavenkoa]

I think you need at least a basic knowledge of Civ to properly follow them

It is not clear why you put this argument, though I would insist you have to have pretty good game understanding to follow Lein or curent Imm/Deity discussions ))

What you can learn from watching his videos is that he makes decisions for based on SOMETHING.

It didn't work in my case. First you have to identify that "something".

NC games facilitate progress much better, when you can check against others progress. In NC threads people reason about the situation, discuss key points.

 

[crashmon]

Just to explain

I started to watch Lain about a year ago, when I came back to civ 4.... Watching him I was able to understand enough to get from noble to prince, but then struggled on Monarch. This was as I was applying what he was doing, but misunderstanding why he was doing it (eg the stalin vid a posted above). So what I originally took from this vid was if the worker has nothing to do, build a warrior... So I took this approach in earlier games which was ofc wrong in 90% of them.

However now I've played a shadow game (in middle of) and had concepts better explained to me, is the reason he build the warrior was all about FogBusting as well, and not wanting his worker killed by Barbs, which is what drove his decision to delay here, also the fact he had 3 clams, so he might want a WB first rather then worker, as to get to BW would be a long haul, and he might be better going fishing to get the WB, but its not in inner ring so lets wait until border pop then get the WB, so have warrior to FB with the scout.....

You learn so much from @Lain, but to fully appreciate his vids you need to know the basics if you try and apply them

 

[Fippy]

Lain's opening was not good here, Worker + BW start allows building a mine with high chance of copper on there.
Then chopping. Not into workboats yet, but first chop can be put into another worker or settler.

 

[drewisfat]

Agreed. Mining starter not fishing, lots of forests, clams not fish. Pretty easy call on BW first. There's a big difference between fish and clams/crabs. I prefer plain cows to clam starts. One less food means not only slower growth, but 4 effective hammers going into worker/settler builds (no exp/imp) instead of 5. That's a big difference given that the default tiles give 3 effective hammers.

 

[floydmcw]

I once tried a Raging Barbs game on Emperor as Charlemagne with zero opponents. I built a worker and the barbs showed up soon after. I couldn't protect my worker and the city, and died to archers or axes.

So if you're playing Raging Barbs and don't meet anyone in the first few turns, maybe switch to warrior.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Lain's opening was not good here, Worker + BW start allows building a mine with high chance of copper on there.
Then chopping. Not into workboats yet, but first chop can be put into another worker or settler.

I think Lain's goal is not to have the fastest domination victory, or the highest score, or to perform the best on a particular map. I think his goal is to have the highest chance of winning (or not losing), no matter the method. I am not saying that warrior first is the best strategy for this goal. But I can understand not wanting to take a 95% fight defending a size 1 city against a barbarian warrior.

 

[Henrik75]

Worker first
Sometimes with charle or justinian you could go settler first due to bad starting techs and if your worker will run out of things to do and be waiting for bronze working/pottery for a while.
i rarely ever go warior first.

 

[Deathcrush]

+1 for worker first

 

[ArchGhost]

then when is it better to build a Warrior instead and grow to two population, to then go off to steal a Worker?

Doing all of that? Never, really. Growing to 2 on a warrior sometimes if you have two high hammer tiles and workboats to build, especially if no Fishing to start....but never growing to 2 and completing the warrior to just go steal a worker anyway.

You'd have to have some crazy scenario of a bad tech/start combo (slow start/nothing for a worker to do), Hunting civ (no starting warrior), little surrounding land prospects (close AI can nix going Settler first to claim a second spot) and somebody close by (so you have a worker to steal in the first place and can put it to use)... all together. And I'd still go Settler first in that case IF you had decent natural hammers (settle on PH/masonry resource + 3 hammer forest/hill or something similar) or are IMP just to start developing 2 cities in parallel after tech catches up in order to get going. It's a rare scenario, but I've done it several times and can help your 4th/beyond city dates.

Also, worker steal is most lucrative when you also build your own worker at home as well. 2 workers to put to use after delay is over, instead of 1 worker with a delay before you can even use it.



Worker first tech straight to BW is still like the best fallback even in the crappiest starts (can't improve resources without Fishing/AH/Mining, everything needs to be chopped to improve it first, etc), as you can just chop into settlers/workers once BW is in. It's really hard to justify much else if you have a lot of chop and no other options.