Calling all CE enthusiasts

[frob2900]

1000 BC Checkpoint.

Spoiler+spoilish discussion follow:

Spoiler :

3 cities, and I've got iron! The industrious Roosevelt is going to die, just hope he has time to build pyramids

I don't really know what to comment except that some people seem to have more cities at 1000 BC and my cities aren't the largest. Nevertheless, I think the combination of aggressive+iron+construction in 11 turns should allow me to take out Roosevelt completely in relatively short order.

@futurehermit:
Your loss of iron+horses was bad, but didn't you consider taking out Roosevelt at construction before he got longbows? An archer+catapult force could easily have mopped up his border cities (importantly: including the iron city, just next door to the viking capital!), and you could then in short order start whipping swordsmen? I'm just asking because I was under the impression you play aggressively?

@DaveMcW:
I agree with futurehermit that your tech choices were well suited to the map, but do you really consider early calendar to be stronger than (slightly) earlier construction? Won't it delay your war with Roosevelt? Then again, all those floodplains do mean fast teching so perhaps not so much...

Or are the southern jungles more interesting than roosevelts plains+arctic due to their cottageability factor?

Do you often ignore monuments or is due to the fact that you could nab such good tiles around city 2 and 3 without them?

(I went for mysticism because my second city was the gold+cows to the west...)

 

[uberfish]

I decided NOT to build cottages immediately as I thought lots of other players would take that approach, instead I put up mines at Nidaros and expanded to 4 cities (3 with granary+barracks) before starting cottages.

Uppsala's position is clearly optimal. City spacing considerations should never be placed above getting resources in the fat cross. City 3 went to get gold and city 4 iron.



At the time of this screenshot I have overrun by 3 turns and have IW. New York has just built stonehenge and so war with Roosevelt is inevitable. I'm going to conquer America with mass swords with a couple of shock axes just to cover from enemy axes. Because of the resources available, the next tech goals are Literature and then Calendar, with 3 workers out + 2 more almost done I can cottage up fast.

in answer to a few points in the discussion

- Swordsmen don't need catapult backup to take cities until mass longbows come out, so there is no rush to get construction here

- I use the whip sparingly in this type of game, the first culture building and/or granary are usually worth it but past those I would rather grow my cottages if possible. If there are unhappy citizens during wartime I whip then.

- financial+FP is the one combination that makes beelining pottery a good opening. I think it's best for a more peaceful start though, I would rather have 1 more city training military if I'm going to go and invade people.

- I'm playing for space race, unfortunately the fastest way to get there is by conquering a couple of enemies and taking their land and resources.

 

[futurehermit]

hey uber nice start and thks for the report!

i'm curious how you approached building workers/settlers early on to expand to 4 cities by 1000BC? did you just grow to size 4 in your capital working pigs and 3 hills and then pump settlers?

 

[cabert]

with uberfish and DaveMcW, this thread will certainly teach us all something .
didn't find time to play it, but I don't think I can bring something good that those 2 wouldn't so nothing lost.

If I had played it I would have beelined to pottery then alphabet then construction. I would have traded alphabet around to get my neighbours to build the Great Library for me.

 

[ds61514]

i'm curious how you approached building workers/settlers early on to expand to 4 cities by 1000BC? did you just grow to size 4 in your capital working pigs and 3 hills and then pump settlers?

I looked at his save...another example where financial benefits are outweighed by the power of pure hammers.

Spoiler :

Although I find his lack of Archy really scary...about ONE turn after his save I saw a barb axeman...but Gandhi's archer took care of it

 

[Dirk1302]

1000 BC point.

Spoiler :

Just got alpha, not much to say at this point. I'm going to build swords and some axes to attack the outer american cities, in the meantime i'll tech to literature for GL, next construction to take american's core cities.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I looked at his save...another example where financial benefits are outweighed by the power of pure hammers.

Spoiler :

Although I find his lack of Archy really scary...about ONE turn after his save I saw a barb axeman...but Gandhi's archer took care of it

It will be interesting to compare - I look and see the 23 turns left to Alphabet and wonder where the cottages are.

Swords can take cities - but if you don't attack soon expect to be taking cities defending with axes. I made this mistake and it cost me a few turns before I could bring up my own axes and cats.

 

[frob2900]

I decided NOT to build cottages immediately as I thought lots of other players would take that approach, instead I put up mines at Nidaros and expanded to 4 cities (3 with granary+barracks) before starting cottages.

4 cities at 1000 BC is impressive, you certainly have some nice hammer output. However I would tend to agree with DaveMcW here; floodplains+financial=cottages to the degree that it might outweigh some extra hammer output. You tech rate is really hurting at the moment, but then again I suppose a cottage spam will take place while Roosevelt is being conquered.

Interesting approach, though, will be interesting to see how it compares to those that cottaged Nidaros early.

 

[uberfish]

Swords can take cities - but if you don't attack soon expect to be taking cities defending with axes. I made this mistake and it cost me a few turns before I could bring up my own axes and cats.

This is ok, the AI uses more archers than axes on city defence. Swordsmens' strong advantage against archers more than makes up for the disadvantage against axes, and once you cut off their metal supply the problem goes away.

Thanks for the kind comments guys.

 

[Dirk1302]

I also like swords if i have iron, the extra base strength and 10% city attack is significant, i always mix in some axes (no need for spears with swords) so i can go about my bussiness undisturbed.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

This is ok, the AI uses more archers than axes on city defence. Swordsmens' strong advantage against archers more than makes up for the disadvantage against axes, and once you cut off their metal supply the problem goes away.

Thanks for the kind comments guys.

I got greedy in my game and had two smaller sword stacks. After taking the first city they both faced axemen and didn't have the numbers to take the city after killing the axes. I wasn't expecting to fight axes but should have guessed the AI probably had metals. Insufficient scouting on my part.

One of my problems with this game is that because I was handed such a gift of a start - cottage floodplains, a level below what I normally play at, my play has been suboptimal in a lot of ways as I have been careless and haven't respected the Monarch AI enough.

Some mistakes I made:
- Not pursuing iron early enough.
- Not concentrating my initial attack and bringing some axes.
- Not destroying or vassalizing Catherine.
- Being overconfident vs Ghandi and not pausing and regrouping first.
- And just recently launching an intercontinental invasion too early - Another couple of galleons would have given me enough troops to hold the cities I took. I ended up doing a dunkirk style withdrawal and will come back with infantry.

Good things I did:
- Letting Roosevelt build me some wonders.
- Early cottages.
- Early catapults
- Early beserkers.
- Ruthless war.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Finished the game. I'll post saves tonight. Final victory - domination in 1680AD with a score of 91k. Who said cottages are inferior for warring?

Spoiler :

Lots of mistakes - see above post. After vassalizing Ghandi I settled a large island and vassalized Mansa for the win. Intercontinental invasion with amphibious city raider grenadiers and frigates/galleons. I didn't need to come back with infantry in the end, my second wave of grenadiers was enough to scare him into submission.

 

[futurehermit]

Finished the game. I'll post saves tonight. Final victory - domination in 1680AD with a score of 91k. Who said cottages are inferior for warring?

Spoiler :

Lots of mistakes - see above post. After vassalizing Ghandi I settled a large island and vassalized Mansa for the win. Intercontinental invasion with amphibious city raider grenadiers and frigates/galleons. I didn't need to come back with infantry in the end, my second wave of grenadiers was enough to scare him into submission.

I did I still stand behind my claim, but that is a great time! I look forward to seeing your save games, thanks

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Unconquered Sun presents:



The Shadow Empire



I'm going to shadow your games with a FE. The comparison might be of some value. Then again, it might not be insightful, but I sure hope it is fun.

The rule: no cottages. If there is no other improvement whatsoever to be build on a tile, then cottaging is OK for a time. However, such cottages and cottages from conquest will be bulldozed ASAP. Since I won't be running any CE civics bulldozing is the right thing to do anyway.

Disclaimer: This is my first ever Monarch game. I play immortal/deity. My empire will be under what's a healthy size for monarch as I'm too hardwired to greater maintenance and cap constraints. Also, Financial is useless to me. In other words, a monarch-attuned FE player with FE traits = stronger FE than the one I'll pull.

Spoiler :

Research is so cheap!

Settled in place, started Worker and AH (half-hutted), Irrigation, then Bronze. Improved pigs, a flood and couple of mines. Horses were not to be found, Roose and Cathy + nearby Bronze/forests were to. Dispatched a warrior/settler/worker to the bronze. Barbarian resistance on the way lost me a dozen turns to my axe rush, luckily Monarch is so forgiving. Meanwhile, more worker/settler for 3 cities at 2000 BC. Also, Pottery for granaries.

The next 1000 years: the core whipped granaries and libraries. The frontier had the bronze connected and four forests chopped for the axe rush. Lost an axe at 87%, but the first Russian city yielded 120 gp. Moscow looks tough, the rest I'll take. Roose and Ghandi = boring. Choosing between Alpha->GL and Math->Currency was far more interesting. Decided on Math, the AIs look too backward for good trades and I'll probably have an open window on the GL for a long time. Besides, I need a way to run merchants as I'm forbidden from running any cottages to pay for military expansion.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I am fascinated to see how it works.

I know what you mean about being "monarch-attuned". I find going down in levels upsets my gameplay as much as going up. I lose the sense of when the AI will take certain actions and I get too cocky in my war plans.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

My (near final) save - a couple of turns before the win.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91972/Cottage_Economists_AD-1665.CivWarlordsSave

 

[ds61514]

Yea fun shadow. IMO the start is a somewhat unconducive to running a SE. No close neighbor means less pillage money. Ragnar means slower axe rush lol In addition as you noted you need Currency, whereas on higher levels AIs get currency fast enough and place such a low value on gold that you can trade old techs for lots of gold.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

No coastal cities for TE either.

Anyway, it's a CE setup. Not working cottages allowed me to invest more into early expansion. My entire russian offenive cost me only a settler and a worker (i.e. food).

Spoiler :

I played four more turns and got one more Russian city. I could take Moscow v. a bunch of 185% archers, but it is a waste of effort considering my overexpansive blue neighbours. Roose chose to settle right in the middle of my budding empire: Of course, he realizes this means war!

 

[DaveMcW]

My entire russian offenive cost me only a settler and a worker (i.e. food).

How much is St. Petersburg costing you in upkeep?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

It's a net donor to the economy. Looted 120 gold from it.