Camel Archer Useless ?

[MegaLurker]

I think once you get to Deity the Spiritual trait is about as strong as the common favourites (philosophical, financial) if you take the time to use it fully. Its a whole lot more than just swapping CS for slavery to get some production in. There are a number of strong combos that come up when you unlock the civics (particularly strong with the 'mids of course):

police state+slavery+vassalage+theocracy+state property makes for ridiculous military buildup. This is not something you would do without being able to switch in and out at will.

representation+CS+mercantilism+pacifism makes for ridiculous GP generation and beakers, but you want to switch between this and slavery/OR to get infrastructure built.

Even serfdom becomes useful, for example when you switch over improvements for state property, or unlock railroads, or even for calendar or just clearing jungle.

That's not even considering the diplomatic bonuses.

 

[Mizar]

I think once you get to Deity the Spiritual trait is about as strong as the common favourites (philosophical, financial) if you take the time to use it fully.

Several trait's strength depends on the difficult level.
As a rule of thumb, spiritual, philosophical, organized and to an extend charismatic and imperialistic all get stronger at immortal/deity.
Financial rules at lower levels were you self research ahead of the pack.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

ORG/IMP are better on higher levels? I've found that the higher level players tend to value ORG/IMP less and less. As I've moved up, I've valued IMP nearer to the bottom of the list. Not because they aren't stronger on higher levels (which they are), but because you learn to value other traits much higher.

FIN rules on low levels when you self tech? I disagree. FIN rules when you need to fund higher cost expansion/unit maintenance and beeline for good tech trades. I've found that FIN is just about totally unnecessary on lower levels where you don't even need help for your to stay ahead of the AI.

 

[Strickl3r]

I only like Imp on Suleiman, because you can work food and specialists asap going for an early bulb game while chopping out the other settlers and workers you need with zero production worked by tiles. Other than that it's a low tier trait no doubt about that.

Organzised is only good on paper not in practice. You won't get many citys on deity and creative, financial, philo, spiritual are almost always better traits in those games.

Yes if you play a game where you get 15+ citys at 1 ad it might be a top tier trait, but that should not be ranked to high.

The main problem with organized imo it helps you, if you have a super large empire, but it doesn't help you to actually get a super large empire.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The main problem with organized imo it helps you, if you have a super large empire, but it doesn't help you to actually get a super large empire.

I think this is a perfect summation of why ORG is a low-tier trait. I also think this has been said previously: By the time you have an empire large enough to enjoy a decent benefit from ORG, you're already winning the game.

 

[MegaLurker]

Several trait's strength depends on the difficult level.
As a rule of thumb, spiritual, philosophical, organized and to an extend charismatic and imperialistic all get stronger at immortal/deity.
Financial rules at lower levels were you self research ahead of the pack.

The strongest thing about the Financial trait is actually how big a difference it can make in the very early game.

In the mid- to late-game the percentage of your commerce coming from the bonus can be pretty insignificant. But very early it's giving you a 33% bonus on riverside cottages for 10 turns, then a 25% bonus for 20 turns. Giving that same 33% bonus on any 2C tile, most importantly coastal tiles. And that at a time when techs are very cheap and therefor each individual beaker has much more value.

I'd argue this is far more important on Deity than it is on difficulties where you're self-teching ahead of the AI. You need to get into the tech brokering game early and often to keep up on Deity. If you start off with nothing to get you in you're pretty much screwed unless you're philosophical or built the mids with plenty of food.

Organized kind of sucks mostly for the reason that was already pointed out. Imperialistic I'd say has very limited usefulness on Deity. You may snag one extra city? If you're boxed in you're boxed in, and only a military breakout is going to fix that. Imperialistic certianly becomes very powerful in the hands of a Deity AI, though.

Charismatic, on the other hand, I totally agree. And I think it's really underrated. It's by far the strongest war trait, and is also a strong early economic trait as well.

 

[elmurcis]

How Tech Trading Off change traits power? What gets more powerfull when you can't "fill tech tree" so easy from trade (same time you can hold some tech lead for longer time)?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

How Tech Trading Off change traits power? What gets more powerfull when you can't "fill tech tree" so easy from trade (same time you can hold some tech lead for longer time)?

On Immortal & Deity, without tech trades, a cottage-spamming AI will usually surpass the player fairly early on. You also have a much harder time controlling diplo as you can't bribe war and there are less options for AI to demand from you for 10 turn peace. It's a little harder to get the +4 "Trade relations have been fair and forthright" without tech trades. Even with just tech brokering turned off, the game gets quite a bit more difficult on higher levels.

But very early it's giving you a 33% bonus on riverside cottages for 10 turns, then a 25% bonus for 20 turns. Giving that same 33% bonus on any 2C tile, most importantly coastal tiles. And that at a time when techs are very cheap and therefor each individual beaker has much more value.

That's what I was saying, too. But with respect to early riverside cottages: 3/2 = 1.5 (50% gain) and hamlets 4/3 = 1.33 (33% gain) so riverside cottages are even stronger than your post would say . I would even say that mid-late game FIN still is pretty good since you're likely to have conquered some AI with cottages & lux resources and each of those will get the extra commerce. So, although FIN is not as important as early game, it still provides a pretty good bonus throughout the game.