Can we increase range of Machine gun by 1?

[Larsenex]

The late game ranged is pretty weak and its even weaker after you pass up the the Field Cannon. There is nothing comparable. I just want the machine gun range to stay at the range it had been in all previous upgrades at least then it can stay in back and tickle the defenders.

If it had a built in positive modifier against cities or melee units it would be meh, but with the range of 1 its really bad.

So can we mod it up one hex and would such a mod or ini tweak work in an existing game?

 

[gyogen2]

This line:

<Row UnitType="UNIT_ANTIAIR_GUN" BaseMoves="2" Cost="455" AdvisorType="ADVISOR_CONQUEST" BaseSightRange="2" ZoneOfControl="false" Domain="DOMAIN_LAND" FormationClass="FORMATION_CLASS_SUPPORT" Name="LOC_UNIT_ANTIAIR_GUN_NAME" Description="LOC_UNIT_ANTIAIR_GUN_DESCRIPTION" PurchaseYield="YIELD_GOLD" PromotionClass="PROMOTION_CLASS_SUPPORT" Maintenance="5" Range="1" PrereqTech="TECH_ADVANCED_BALLISTICS" AntiAirCombat="65"/>

in Units.xml
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\Gameplay\Data

change Range="1" to desired range

 

[Larsenex]

Thank you very much!

 

[MarkSullivan]

Be interested to see what you think about this after playing a game that way.. I was considering a mod for it, but I think that makes them too powerful. But it is strange that you upgrade to Machine Guns and lose range.

 

[Larsenex]

I made the change. It does not change the game at all and it feels just better. Logically the cannons should upgrade and keep range. Mech infantry is still more powerful and all this does is give mechs more power by having the machine guns behind them

 

[zafhos]

Logically the cannons should upgrade and keep range.

They added "baloon" support unit to increase range. And historically when you put machine gun behind your infantry, it would kill your infantry.

 

[MarkSullivan]

The issue is more the upgrade path. It is something like slinger (range 1) --> archer (range 2) --> crossbowman (range 2) --> field gun ( range 2 ) --> machine gun ( range 1 )

I would rather break machine gun out of that upgrade path, and maybe give a defense bonus to them.

What would field gun upgrade to that makes sense, doesn't already exist in game, and would be a ranged unit?

 

[MarkSullivan]

Mortar

Yeah, perfect! This would be a good mod once they bring up actual mod support to give the unit a new look. I'll have to think about how to do it in the meantime.

 

[Mynex]

Machine guns being a ranged unit makes no sense. Machine guns have a substantially shorter range than normal rifles, and always have

Max Effective/Lethal Ranges
M60 Machine Gun - 1200 meters
50 Caliber MG - 1800-2300 meters
M240 SAW (Squad Antipersonell Weapon) - 1100-1800 meters

M16 Rifle - 984 meters
AK47 - 350 meters
.306 - 800-1000 meters (varies by manufacturer)

M252 Mortar - 4500-5600 meters

Sniper rifles are a different category and not widespread use, so I didn't include them (but they can range from 1100 to 2000 meters).

So no, Machine guns do not, and rarely ever, have had shorter distances than rifles.

As for implementation in CiVI... Maybe try giving machine guns a range of 2 and mortars a range of 3? If that seems too powerful for the game, then stick with 1 and 2.

Taken from various sources, for what I couldn't remember (I've fired all of those weapons when I was in the Marines), and there is a distinct difference between Maximum Range and Effective Range.

 

[MarkSullivan]

Max Effective/Lethal Ranges
...

As for implementation in CiVI... Maybe try giving machine guns a range of 2 and mortars a range of 3? If that seems too powerful for the game, then stick with 1 and 2.

Thanks for the info.

The problem is those observation balloons.. so if they work, mortars could attack from a range of 4 and machine guns with a range of 3.. unless we made the balloons less effective. I've actually never used the balloons, but probably will. But, I think I will start with 1 and 2 first and see what I think. Giving the machine gunners a defensive bonus would be a nice addition I think.

I have been eyeing those Chinese unique units. If we could just swap out the characters' clothes/hats for something more modern, it wouldn't be the worst unit art to start with.

 

[BomberEscort]

This line:

<Row UnitType="UNIT_ANTIAIR_GUN" BaseMoves="2" Cost="455" AdvisorType="ADVISOR_CONQUEST" BaseSightRange="2" ZoneOfControl="false" Domain="DOMAIN_LAND" FormationClass="FORMATION_CLASS_SUPPORT" Name="LOC_UNIT_ANTIAIR_GUN_NAME" Description="LOC_UNIT_ANTIAIR_GUN_DESCRIPTION" PurchaseYield="YIELD_GOLD" PromotionClass="PROMOTION_CLASS_SUPPORT" Maintenance="5" Range="1" PrereqTech="TECH_ADVANCED_BALLISTICS" AntiAirCombat="65"/>

in Units.xml
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\Gameplay\Data

change Range="1" to desired range

Doesn't this change the anti-air gun and not the machine gunner?

 

[MarkSullivan]

Doesn't this change the anti-air gun and not the machine gunner?

Yeah. Find the row that says something like UNIT_MACHINE_GUN and change the Range to '2', rather than '1'.

EDIT: Or I can make a quick mod for you if you want. I prefer not to mess with updating the core files when possible. Won't be able to do that until later tonight though.

 

[Larsenex]

Update. Balloons do not increase the range for machine guns. They only work with units with the 'bombard' tag in their descriptor.
I am ok with leaving them at range 1 BUT I would like to see bonus to dmg vrs another unit. Why have machine guns if Mech infantry is faster and better? I was simply looking for options to keep the 'end game' ranged unit viable and used alongside infantry which it is and was.

 

[Larsenex]

I will also add that you can increase the range of machine guns to range two as i did it and it will update and work in an existing game.

 

[MarkSullivan]

Update. Balloons do not increase the range for machine guns. They only work with units with the 'bombard' tag in their descriptor.
I am ok with leaving them at range 1 BUT I would like to see bonus to dmg vrs another unit. Why have machine guns if Mech infantry is faster and better? I was simply looking for options to keep the 'end game' ranged unit viable and used alongside infantry which it is and was.

Yeah, and it would be nice to have a ranged unit. The bombard units still have to setup a turn before shooting.

 

[Mynex]

No problem for the info. I think a lot of people have a misconception of the role of the machine gun in history. The SAW sums it up nicely: Squad ANTIPERSONNEL Weapon. Sure the 50/60 cal can chew through light armor, but the main purpose is 'crowd control' if you will. A pair of machine guns on each side of a field of combat is grim work for foot troops. If they're dug in? Forget it... call in an air strike, mortars, tanks, or just bypass if possible.

On the flip side, a single grenade can ruin a gunners entire day. *wry*

 

[Mentos]

Changing the Machine Gun range to 2 is the right decision, as these dominated the battlefields since WW1 in direct and indirect fire. Even tanks in WW2 were shredded by machine gun fire sometimes. The power of indirect fire with small projectiles is often underestimated. Just google for machine guns and indirect fire, and you’ll find info and pictures about that.
I’ve also increased the Slinger and other Ranged units to range to 2, as these were comparable to bows. Only the unique Chinese Crouching Tiger maybe deserves its puny range of 1 because of about 80m real range. That could be quickly covered by melee units in an assault.

Let me quote Wiki about slings:

Ancient peoples used the sling in combat—armies included both specialist slingers and regular soldiers equipped with slings. As a weapon, the sling had several advantages; a sling bullet lobbed in a high trajectory can achieve ranges in excess of 400 metres (1,300 ft).Modern authorities vary widely in their estimates of the effective range of ancient weapons. A bow and arrow could also have been used to produce a long range arcing trajectory, but ancient writers repeatedly stress the sling's advantage of range.

The Romans would have never used slingers in their armies if they weren’t that effective as bows. The arrows of bows are deadlier, but that’s what the higher combat values reflect well enough in the game. Archers are so quickly researched that Slingers don't really matter in the game that much anyway.

Back to the Machine Gun unit: it looses somewhat power later against mechanized units, so everything looks fine in my book.

 

[sp00n]

Yeah, I think a "Mortar" style unit would have been better and more in line with what the the previous units were designed to do. In Civ4 the Machine Guns were defensive units, unable to attack. Which makes sense in my opinion. Setting up that machine gun nest and advancing forward to an emeny doesn't seem very plausible. So maybe replacing the Machine Gun with a Mortar unit and using the Machine Gun as some kind of support unit against ground attacks would be an idea for a future mod.

... but as long as somebody creates this, I've made a mod for the Machine Gun's range.

 

[Mynex]

The M240 SAW is a machine gun that can spit out 3000 rounds a minute... and it can be carried by a single person... granted it's a good idea to have a second one to feed the ammo in and help change the barrel after those 3k rounds, but not required.

Why? Because if 3k rounds doesn't clear your immediate area of hostiles, you have bigger problems than a melted barrel.

 

[Bodin]

Yes, I'd be interested in a mod that changes all ranged units to 2. I'm not sure how to mod it myself so that I can 'turn it on' or 'leave it off'. A mod in Additional Content would seem to be the best way to accomplish that (if I knew how to do it myself).