Cannon rush deity, possible?

[civtilidy]

My ultimate civgoal is to beat deity.hugemap.normalspeed.17ai.domination.no UUcheese.preferably no nukecheese.before ai win space. This is my biggest dream and cannon rush is my latest idea to make it come true. I think it will be a good way to eat enemy 3 numbered-stacks.

So has diety cannon rush ever been done before? Link lets plays or stories please!
Please give feedback on my plans and come with your own how to reach steel asap
Plans
1. Shortest techroute: set up about 8 library with scientists cities.
MC(bulb or trade)->machinery(bulb)->eng(bulb)->trade feud->guilds(slowtech/bulb?)->gunpowder(slowtech)->chemistry(bulb/doublebulb)->steel->meatgrinder
2. Theopaperedu route
Earlytemple+around 8 libraries with scientists. Pop GP before any GS
Theo(bulb)->paper(bulb)->education(doublebulb)->gunpowder(slowtech/lib)->chemistry(bulb/double)->steel
So is this realistic and doable?
3.your plan for reaching steel asap?
4. Your plan for winning domination with the conditions I mentioned?

 

[Fippy]

Should be plenty deity cannons games around, after Cuirs (Cavs) they are a favorite breakout unit for that level

Huge map & normal speed would probably favor mounted, long ways and movement is what makes Cuirs even more popular than cannons usually, on standard size already.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Diety Cannon rushes are fairly common after Cuirrassier rushes as Fippy mentioned above. There are also Riflemen rushes where they are usually massively drafted and often used with Trebuchet support. Cannon rushes can be started with Musketmen support, but one usually techs to Rifling (after Steel) to draft Riflemen.

The problem is one move units may be too slow/ambitious for a huge map. A Cannon rush can still be viable, but it will likely evolve into an Artillery rush or better yet a Tank rush (which is as fast as mounted, but there is no way to upgrade to Tanks). A Cannon rush on Huge can still be done, but pure mounted units, supported by fortified Spies in high culture/hill cities that perform Support City Revolt when mounted units are in attack range, will dominate the map sooner.

If you really want to do a Cannon rush on Huge, I suggest building large numbers of Trebuchets which can be upgraded to Cannons rather cheaply, though you may plan to have a 1-2 Great Merchants perform trade missions to time well with the completion of Steel.

Good luck!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The mounted version of what BornInCataloup said about different eras of war might be:

1. Horse Archer rush
2. Upgrade Horse Archers -> Cuirrassiers rush
3. Upgrade Cuirrassiers -> Cavalry rush

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The more important point @ huge map + standard speed, imo, is to start warring before cannons are an option. So as to take (some form of) control over the map.

Agreed! That is why (for the mounted attack option) I suggested the upgrade progression Horse Archer -> Cuirrasier -> Cavalry.

For a Cannon rush the analog would be Catapult/Trebuchet upgraded to Cannon upgraded to Artillery (Trebuchets are much cheaper to upgrade though; I'd promote Catapults CR1 Accuracy). The corresponding foot soldier progression would be Swordsman -> Maceman -> Grenadier (or Rifleman) or the earlier mentioned option to draft Musketmen (all the above foot soldiers, except Grenadier, can be drafted too, but Rifleman drafts are the best).

Mounted can also be used with siege and foot soldiers. There is synergy in using Spies and Support City Revolt with mounted units, but spies can be used with melee and seige units too.

As BornInCataloup pointed out earlier, Cannon rush is primarily the tech bulbing and trading path to liberalize Steel. In trying to bulb Chemistry, I believe one may need to trade for Printing Press first, otherwise s Great Scientist would bulb that instead. I'm not sure whether this can be avoided by not researching/trading for some prerequisite of Printing Press (it's hard to avoid Paper to bulb Chemistry and still liberalize Steel for example). You will need to analyze the bulbing tech path carefully to avoid unecessary technologies like Printing Press, though I'm not sure there is any efficient way to avoid Printing Press completely. Consider a tech path where Liberalism itself can be bulbed; double bulb Chemistry, complete the blocking technology, bulb Paper, double bulb Education, bulb Liberalism. I really don't believe that Printing Press can be efficiently avoided in this manner; even if it could, it may not be either efficient or practical (generating large numbers of Great Scientists would need at least two Golden Ages [one could be Taj Mahal], and MoM).

Again, good luck!

 

[civtilidy]

Ty all for the tips, very helpful
The reason i dont like cav is the heavy counters and the heavy whipping and that you cant draft them, drafting gives more hammers per food. So thats why I want siege because conscripts are useless taking cities without. Siege can give a casualty rate maybe 10:1 if at tech parity so the army can grow all the time. My plan is actually ele/axapult rush->trebmace->cannonguns->artfantry because of the upgrade synergy
I think I can pay most upgrades with Wastintimes newly developed wonderbread economy
Reason for huge map+normal speed is for the challenge,map is practically 3xbigger vs marathon and drafting is 50% more effecient vs marathon
Ill do some more investigation about bulbpaths

 

[pigswill]

Maybe going for railroad after steel will solve some of the movement problems.

 

[pigswill]

Otoh RR gives MGs (update combat maces and/or CG xbows) to protect cannon and maces from them nasty rifles and/or cavs so its a kind of military tech anyway.

 

[civtilidy]

Alright lets discuss what to do post steel what may be the strongest move. I must mention that my empire will be adjusted for an espionage economy(nationhood+cottage economy+jails+intelligence agency)+ minimal sciencebuildings
Plz choose one of the following
1.relax and just follow ai by stealing techs whatever path
2.sci met(bulb/steal)->physics(bulb/steal)hopefully get sci->steal towards rifling(likely possible at this point)->ARTILLERY
3.whatever fastest way to get ASSEMBLYLINE for infantryand massive prod (will play Bismarck so assemblyplants)
4.fastest way to MINING INC. Will save GE for this+huge map->many resources+cityspam->overpowered +300h/turn yes plz
5.another plan?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Your plan to steal techs from the AI looks good. You can give a city close to your capital to each AI you plan to steal techs from; for one, this minimizes the espionage distance from capital penalty; you can give the city after it has both grown to 2 (will not auto-raze) and after adding 100-1000 or more culture (creating a Great Work via a GA is an expensive but extremely fast way to add a lot of culture) to gain a massive -50% City Culture espionage discount.

Another way to reduce the distance penalty is moving your capital closer to the target city, but that will also drastically affect your economy, unless you are running Communism.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Alright lets discuss what to do post steel what may be the strongest move. I must mention that my empire will be adjusted for an espionage economy(nationhood+cottage economy+jails+intelligence agency)+ minimal sciencebuildings
Plz choose one of the following
1.relax and just follow ai by stealing techs whatever path
2.sci met(bulb/steal)->physics(bulb/steal)hopefully get sci->steal towards rifling(likely possible at this point)->ARTILLERY
3.whatever fastest way to get ASSEMBLYLINE for infantryand massive prod (will play Bismarck so assemblyplants)
4.fastest way to MINING INC. Will save GE for this+huge map->many resources+cityspam->overpowered +300h/turn yes plz
5.another plan?

Both Assembly Line and founding Mining Inc will require Corporation. You can easily steal both Economics and Corporation from the AIs, in addition to Physics. Stealing the prerequisites for Rifling (Printing Press and Replaceable Parts) is also possible. Stealing Steam Power and Railroad is also possible. The AI is slow to tech Rifling, which is good for you, sometimes they will tech Military Science and Grenadier attacks on your SoD with Riflemen defenders can be a pain; That makes pigswill's idea of Railroad for Machine Guns brilliant! Just research the technologies the AI is slow to complete.

You will likely want to research Rifling -> Artillery yourself, so the AI is delayed in getting these technologies or have a weak AI or a vassal research them for you (as long as the are monopoly techs, they are not likely to trade them to other AIs).

 

[lindsay40k]

Your plan to steal techs from the AI looks good. You can give a city close to your capital to each AI you plan to steal techs from; for one, this minimizes the espionage distance from capital penalty; you can give the city after it has both grown to 2 (will not auto-raze) and after adding 100-1000 or more culture (creating a Great Work via a GA is an expensive but extremely fast way to add a lot of culture) to gain a massive -50% City Culture espionage discount.

Another way to reduce the distance penalty is moving your capital closer to the target city, but that will also drastically affect your economy, unless you are running Communism.

Tangential query: is it the city's own culture level that determines the discount, or the tile's culture level? I.E., would a culture bomb that pushes borders to envelope an enemy city produce the desired effect?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Tangential query: is it the city's own culture level that determines the discount, or the tile's culture level? I.E., would a culture bomb that pushes borders to envelope an enemy city produce the desired effect?

No, the City Culture espionage discount is based on actual City Culture, not Tile Culture. You want to create a Great Work (culture bomb) inside the gift city prior to giving it to the target AI Civ (that will ensure a maximum or near maximum City Culture espionage discount for a very long time). Culture bombing a nearby city will not have the desired effect, but it will do this ...

High tile culture around the gifted city will ensure that city will have few or even zero workable plots. Ideally the gift cities will be 3 plots from the capital (orthogonally is best, since it has less distance penalty than diagonally); After Engineering, this will allow Spies to move from the capital (after a successful prior mission) to the gift city in a single turn. So the capital will usually exert a lot of tile culture around the gift city, thus reducing the number of plots that city can work.

After giving away the city, City Culture can still be added via Inject Culture missions and this can increase the City Culture espionage discount, if it isn't already at maximum (50%). I'm not sure how beneficial doing this would be though; It may be better to do the primary espionage missions at a lower City Culture espionage discounts rather than try to increase that discount via Culture Injection missions.

 

[civtilidy]

Ty all for the good tips!
I will do some reading especially spaceship guide when I got time , and come back for more discussion. Feel free to keep discussing

 

[lindsay40k]

I'll mention that if you're going Rifles & MGs then you can get CG and Combat MGs by upgrading from XBs. (Likewise Grens & MGs.) My current game's a big Earth as Qin, Genghis has helpfully given my CKNs enough target practice I've got a March Combat V MG and a CGIII Drill IV MG at the cost of a dozen or so catapults to soften his stacks. Should've gotten a Guerilla II but hey, these two and a few March Combat IIs should see me through to Ulundi.

Is there a whipping boy you can join a dogpile on to get a GG prior to the big push? Drafted Rifle swarm is great but I'll happily expend a modest stack to get access to Bombard and CRII without civics and CRIII with civics and a single kill. I assume everyone here knows you can qualify for a Heroic Epic from three promos from Barbs but gonna mention it for lurkers