Capitalization and Religion

[Eran of Arcadia]

I am starting this thread to continue a debate begun in my "Theistic Evolution" thread that doesn't really belong there. I often see nonbelievers fail to capitalize words that should be capitalized (being proper nouns) just because they deal with religious concepts, and apparently it is a sign of being free from such "superstition" not to capitalize them. It may be a small thing; yet the oft-repeated claim that it is done out of inattention to grammar is belied by the fact that they often capitalize everything else correctly. If it really isn't a big deal, why fail in just those instances? If it really is a philosophical position, just admit it.

So here is why the following, which I have all seen not capitalized in a single post once, should be capitalized:

"Jesus" - obviously, this is a person's name. People's names are capitalized in English. Even if you insist that he didn't exist historically, it should still be capitalized.

"God" - I understand that there are a number of possible gods, and if you don't believe in him/her/it/them there seems to be no reason. It may make more sense only to capitalize specific nmaes such as Yahweh or Thor or Ahura Mazda. But if such names aren't used - whether because a more general concept of "God" is being discusssed, or because one is implied, or whatever - then the word "God" itself becomes the name of the deity in question, and thus should be capitalized.

"Christian" - well, it is customary to capitalize the names of organizations and groups. We don't refer to "americans" and "russians" and whatnot, they are also capitalized. I am neither Jew nor Muslim, but I capitalize them. Words like "theist" and "atheist" are more general - there is no sense of belonging - but a religion is more specific.

"Bible" - again referring to something specific. It is a collection of books, written over centuries, that was later collected together. But such collections are, I believe, usually capitalized. We don't speak of the lord of the rings, after all.

My point here is not to be a spelling Nazi. I don't see these as inadvertant errors but intentional. But they are, as far as I can tell, grammatically incorrect. Well, if you insist on doing it that way, just admit what you are doing and that is fine.

 

[Smellincoffee]

What about humanism?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What about humanism?

If ever a Church of Humanism is established, it would be correct to refer to its adherents as Humanists, just as we now have Pastafarians and the like. Since belonging to a school of thought (stoicism, atheism, deism, etc.) is far more informal and inexact than belonging to an organized religion, we would capitalize one and not the other.

Unless any English majors want to correct me, but outside forums I have always seen it done the way I have described.

 

[skadistic]

I will capitalize names like Jesus and Abraham. I will not for god its not an actual person its an idea, bible is a type of book I dont but caps on types of books, jews christians are like boys and girls.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I will capitalize names like Jesus and Abraham.

Good, but others here have made a point of not capitalizing "Jesus".

I will not for god its not an actual person its an idea

Maybe so, but "God" is still a name used to describe that idea.

bible is a type of book I dont but caps on types of books

The Bible is not a type of book but an actual book itself. Just like we capitalize other collections of books (like the Lord of the Rings trilogy) we should capitalize this one. referring to things like "this book is the bible of auto repair" is different.

jews christians are like boys and girls.

More like "African" or "Albanian" than "boy" or "girl", it is far more specific. And like I said, in every book or newspaper or anything, outside internet forums, names of religions and their adherents are capitalized.

 

[skadistic]

Christian gets it if at the begining of a sentence. Catholic, Protistan, Babtist, Morman now they get caps. And the bible is a type of book relating to christians not all use the same bible. If the bible was a book and not a type of book they would be the same page for page.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Every single source I have seen - newspapers, dictionaries, books, you name it - capitalize "Christian". Are you saying they are all wrong and you are the one who is right?

 

[skadistic]

I don't think it warrents caps.

christian = westerner
Babtist = American

Its not about right and wrong its about where you draw your lines. Personal preference if you will.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't think it warrants caps.

christian = westerner
Baptist = American

Its not about right and wrong its about where you draw your lines. Personal preference if you will.

So, essentially, you are saying that despite what all the professional writiers think, "christian" is a vague enough concept not to deserve capitalization.

Can't say I agree with you, but your position is consistent, and I will respect that at least.

 

[ironduck]

I already explained why I capitalize what I do in the other thread.. I really can't be arsed to give special status to people belonging to some obscure club of their choosing, and the 'god' thing is very specific as I explained in my last post. If I capitalize 'god' then it's because I show respect for this specific god, but to me gods are just gods. The capitalized 'God' is not a name, it's a way of saying 'the true god'. If you want to say Jehova I'm fine and dandy with that.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I already explained why I capitalize what I do in the other thread.. I really can't be arsed to give special status to people belonging to some obscure club of their choosing

Even though that is what is normally done in English, so you are essentially changing the rules to avoid bother? We have Freemasons and Elks and even sports teams like the Wildcats and Knights and whatnot, and these are really obscure clubs more than a religion is. Remember, as the names of religions are capitalized everywhere else you have to explain why you are changing the rules of English, and why you don't apply it to any other group (unless you do). Give me a good reason and I will accept it, but I haven't seen one yet.

'god' thing is very specific as I explained in my last post. If I capitalize 'god' then it's because I show respect for this specific god, but to me gods are just gods. The capitalized 'God' is not a name, it's a way of saying 'the true god'. If you want to say Jehova I'm fine and dandy with that.

I still disagree. I don't have to be referring to the true god, but if it is being used as a substitute for a name it should be capitalized. I obviously don't believe in the Zoroastrian concept of God, but it would be better for me to say, "For Zoroastrians, God is a . . ."

(I also see any religious concept of God - of any religion - as being not its own god but a reflection of the true God, but this is a religious, not a grammatical, position.)

 

[ironduck]

Even though that is what is normally done in English, so you are essentially changing the rules to avoid bother? We have Freemasons and Elks and even sports teams like the Wildcats and Knights and whatnot, and these are really obscure clubs more than a religion is. Remember, as the names of religions are capitalized everywhere else you have to explain why you are changing the rules of English. Give me a good reason and I will accept it, but I haven't seen one yet.

My native language does not capitalize the members of clubs. I prefer it that way. Since I'm not writing for a newspaper in English I don't have to follow grammar rules I disagree with.

Give me a good reason for why I should change.

I still disagree. I don't have to be referring to the true god, but if it is being used as a substitute for a name it should be capitalized. I obviously don't believe in the Zoroastrian concept of God, but it would be better for me to say, "For Zoroastrians, God is a . . ."

Ah, but you believe in a god, so for you it makes sense to say it exactly the way you just did in your example. The whole point is that when you say 'God' you acknowledge that a specific god exists and that it should be capitalized. I do not acknowledge such a thing, I simply acknowledge that some people believe in a concept or figure called a god. So for zoroastrians their god is a..

 

[ironduck]

(I also see any religious concept of God - of any religion - as being not its own god but a reflection of the true God, but this is a religious, not a grammatical, position.)

Actually this is exactly the point of it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

My native language does not capitalize the members of clubs. I prefer it that way. Since I'm not writing for a newspaper in English I don't have to follow grammar rules I disagree with. Give me a good reason for why I should change.

Well, if you feel that following the rules of the language in which you are writing is an unreasonable burden, I guess I can't argue.

Side note: in English, most of the words in a title are capitalized. In Spanish, only the first is. But I follow the rules of whichever language I am using. Thus the title would be in Spanish, "Capitalización y religión". And it would be correct to speak of cristianos and la biblia and so forth.

Ah, but you believe in a god, so for you it makes sense to say it exactly the way you just did in your example. The whole point is that when you say 'God' you acknowledge that a specific god exists and that it should be capitalized. I do not acknowledge such a thing, I simply acknowledge that some people believe in a concept or figure called a god. So for zoroastrians their god is a..

I still don't think that makes a difference. Usually when we are referring to people, whether or not they exist, we capitalize their name. "God" can be the name of any deity, whether or not we accept his/her/it/their existence, in conversation it becomes the name we use. We could use more specific names (Yahweh, Allah, Ahura Mazda), or the more general "God".

And I have seen others, even nonbelievers, follow this convention. For example, Stephen Jay Gould was an agnostic (as far as I can tell, anyone correct me if I'm wrong) and thus did not have an active belief in God in any form. Yet whenever he spoke of God, he capitalized it.

 

[ironduck]

Well, if you feel that following the rules of the language in which you are writing is an unreasonable burden, I guess I can't argue.

Side note: in English, most of the words in a title are capitalized. In Spanish, only the first is. But I follow the rules of whichever language I am using.

It has nothing to do with being a burden. It's a choice. I prefer it this way. I already said that. Do you always follow the rules no matter what? I make other changes to the English language as well, some grammatical rules in English are just absurd and I much prefer to do things differently in those cases so I do. I think I help enhance the language this way. As you may realize, languages constantly evolve, and English is one of the most bastardized and rule-less of the major languages that exist.

I still don't think that makes a difference. Usually when we are referring to people, whether or not they exist, we capitalize their name. "God" can be the name of any deity, whether or not we accept his/her/it/their existence, in conversation it become the name we use. We could use more specific names (Yahweh, Allah, Ahura Mazda), or the more general "God".

And I have seen others, even nonbelievrs, follow this convention. For example, Stephen Jay Gould was an agnostic (as far as I can tell, anyone correct me if I'm wrong) and thus did not have an active belief in God in any form. Yet whenever he spoke of God, he capitalized it.

First of all, people are free to capitalize whatever they feel like. I'm telling you why I don't capitalize 'god'.

Secondly, I don't see 'God' as a name of a deity, I see it as the Abrahamic religious 'non-name' of the deity they're not allowed to give a name (old jewish rule). People from other religions will also capitalize 'God' as the concept they believe in and so people from various religions can speak of how they each perceive 'God' in their religion. But I don't perceive any 'God', because I haven't met any such thing. To me capitalizing 'God' is the same as acknowledging the existence of this creature. Or to copy the Webster definition once again:

"2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship"

Non-capitalized.

Here is the capitalized definition:

1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

The supreme or ultimate reality? I don't type The Supreme And Ultimate Reality either. Nor do I type The Being Perfect In Power, Wisdom And Goodness.

Really, I don't get what the problem is. I don't know any god, so why should I capitalize a specific one? You know one so when you refer to it, it makes sense for you to capitalize it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It has nothing to do with being a burden. It's a choice. I prefer it this way. I already said that. Do you always follow the rules no matter what? I make other changes to the English language as well, some grammatical rules in English are just absurd and I much prefer to do things differently in those cases so I do. I think I help enhance the language this way. As you may realize, languages constantly evolve, and English is one of the most bastardized and rule-less of the major languages that exist.

So basically, you are changing the rules of grammar because you like the uncapitalized look better, and because it conforms to your native language (what is that, by the way?) and because English is, after all, a chimera. Well, that's a good explanation, I suppose. I don't agree with you, but as long as you are consistent in applying these rules without a bias against religious groups (so don't ever capitalize the names of clubs or sports teams or even political parties). Current rules require capitalization in normal usage, though, so you are incorrect. But hey, it's your language too, right?

First of all, people are free to capitalize whatever they feel like. I'm telling you why I don't capitalize 'god'.

Secondly, I don't see 'God' as a name of a deity, I see it as the Abrahamic religious 'non-name' of the deity they're not allowed to give a name (old jewish rule). People from other religions will also capitalize 'God' as the concept they believe in and so people from various religions can speak of how they each perceive 'God' in their religion. But I don't perceive any 'God', because I haven't met any such thing. To me capitalizing 'God' is the same as acknowledging the existence of this creature. Or to copy the Webster definition once again:

Really, I don't get what the problem is. I don't know any god, so why should I capitalize a specific one? You know one so when you refer to it, it makes sense for you to capitalize it.

Usually, when an atheist talks about God he means "any concept anyone has of any deity, although such a concept is wrong". You don't really actively disbelieve in anyone. But then, when you speak of God you are generally anthropomorphizing the concept (you use masculine pronouns and speak of him as a person) which means that in a sense, God has become a person for you, albeit one whose existence you reject. But in that case, I still think it is wrong not to capitalize. By speaking of God, even though you don't actually believe in him, you have made him something. Just as I can speak of Santa Claus - there are different opinions among those who believe in him what form he takes, and I don't believe any of them; yet I still capitalize.

 

[ironduck]

So basically, you are changing the rules of grammar because you like the uncapitalized look better, and because it conforms to your native language (what is that, by the way?) and because English is, after all, a chimera. Well, that's a good explanation, I suppose. I don't agree with you, but as long as you are consistent in applying these rules without a bias against religious groups (so don't ever capitalize the names of clubs or sports teams or even political parties). Current rules require capitalization in normal usage, though, so you are incorrect. But hey, it's your language too, right?

Of course I change the rules of the language - most people do that more or less consciously. Also, if I decide that I only want to capitalize certain groups and exclude others then I don't see why anyone should stop me from doing so. I'll use the grammar that works best for me. That means both what I personally like best as well as how I'm best able to convey my thoughts. And my native language is Danish.

Usually, when an atheist talks about God he means "any concept anyone has of any deity, although such a concept is wrong". You don't really actively disbelieve in anyone. But then, when you speak of God you are generally anthropomorphizing the concept (you use masculine pronouns and speak of him as a person) which means that in a sense, God has become a person for you, albeit one whose existence you reject. But in that case, I still think it is wrong not to capitalize. By speaking of God, even though you don't actually believe in him, you have made him something. Just as I can speak of Santa Claus - there are different opinions among those who believe in him what form he takes, and I don't believe any of them; yet I still capitalize.

I capitalize names. I've already said that. Give your god a name and I'll capitalize it. But I won't capitalize 'god' as a concept. I'm also not an atheist.

And I still don't see why it bothers you.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Of course I change the rules of the language - most people do that more or less consciously. Also, if I decide that I only want to capitalize certain groups and exclude others then I don't see why anyone should stop me from doing so. I'll use the grammar that works best for me. That means both what I personally like best as well as how I'm best able to convey my thoughts. And my native language is Danish.

So basically, you are saying, "I won't tell you why I will not capitalize the names of religions, but I feel like it." That strikes me as a little absurd, and sort of confirms my earlier hypothesis that it is done to show condescension towards religion. But whatever, it was to determine that that I started this thread.

I capitalize names. I've already said that. Give your god a name and I'll capitalize it. But I won't capitalize 'god' as a concept. And I still don't see why it bothers you.

Well, intentional bad grammar has always annoyed me. I can't stop you certainly, but like I said it appears to me that I am getting honest answers as to why people do it. If you really want to break grammatical rules because you are trying to get a rise out of me, and also think they are irrelevant, then that's your right and I won't complain. But I will persist in saying that they are incorrect. (Not to the point of being a grammar Nazi, however.)

And my god is named "God", how's that?

I'm also not an atheist.

I apologize for making assumptions, but I thought we'd had that conversation before. Maybe I remembered wrong.

 

[ironduck]

So basically, you are saying, "I won't tell you why I will not capitalize the names of religions, but I feel like it." That strikes me as a little absurd, and sort of confirms my earlier hypothesis that it is done to show condescension towards religion. But whatever, it was to determine that that I started this thread.

What the heck? Have you even read my last four-five posts on this issue? I've explained exactly what I capitalize and why. I don't single out religious groups, so why do you keep focusing on that? I simply said that if I like to I'll capitalize whatever the heck I feel like capitalizing. Such as Every other Letter that I type.

Well, intentional bad grammar has always annoyed me. I can't stop you certainly, but like I said it appears to me that I am getting honest answers as to why people do it.

It's not bad grammar. You think it's bad grammar because you don't like it. I already showed you that I use the second definition in the dictionary which is not capitalized. I do NOT use the first definition because I do not recognize it.

And my god is named "God", how's that?

I thought your god was named Jehova, the unspeakable yhwh. The reason Abrahamic religions are all about 'God' is because of the monotheistic aspect - all the other gods are pushed aside (kinda, sorta) and now the one true god should be capitalized. But I recognize no one true god. It really is that simple.

I really should say 'your god' every time I refer to 'god', but I know that christians tend to get really antsy about that, so I just write 'god'. But pretend that I'm writing 'your god' and then you really can't complain anymore, can you?

 

[Mon Mauler]

Just to throw my two cents out there...

I very rarely ever capitalize the words 'god' or 'bible' because they are indefinite ideas. By capitalizing a word you give it legitimacy. When you capitalize a word it is a show of respect to the entity, action or idea embodied by the word.

Furthermore, I generally do not capitalize the terms such as christian, atheist or agnostic. Once again, these terms are fairly indefinite and can't be accurately describe as a person, organization or place. Rather, these are schools of thought, and I do not capitalize them just as I do not generally capitalize the words communism or capitalism.

On the other hand, I always captalize the name 'Jesus', if only for the simple reason that I always capitalize someone's name. Similarly, I also capitalize terms such as Roman Catholic Church. It is disrespectful not to capitalize the names of people and organizations.

Also, Eran, I'm not sure I buy your argument concerning "professional writers." I, for one, have had a a variety of different types of works published in reputable publications and by reputable publishers. For this work I have been compensated. In the traditional sense of the word, I could be considered a "professional writer," yet I do not conform to the conventions you claim to be standard.

In fact, if you pick up any great book you are bound to find a myriad of situations in which the author has blatantly disregarded convention. If this is done for a purpose, then the usage is generally considered to be acceptable. The disregard for convention can even enhance a piece of writing. e.e. cummings, James Joyce, Kurt Vonnegut, and countless others would undoubtedly disagree with you.

In my case, I can definitely say that my use of capitalization, especially concerning religious terms, is used to convey my set of beliefs and ideals.

In a way, I think the opening of this thread justifies the disregard for convention displayed in these forums. Don'tcha think?