[NFP] Captured Cities Yield Too Much

[Lily_Lancer]

I'm always thinking about why Civ6 encourages war so much. Actually the units in Civ6 are not cheap and after a serial of updates taking down cities requires more units than Civ5 now. It uses local amenity system which encourages large empires than global happiness, however Civ4 uses the similar local happiness system and there seems no such problem in Civ4 wars.

One thing makes the Civ6 wars extremely profitable, is that captured cities yield too much.

In Civ6, when you capture a city, 25% population are lost, all buildings are kept except for walls, only buildings in the city center need fix, and are fixed quickly, all other districts and building inside districts are kept, and are running at full effect as soon as you bring your loyalty more than 75, which is only 2~5 turns. When the loyalty is below 75 you still get 50% of the yields.

In previous Civ games, 50% of the population, 33% of the buildings are lost, this rate is 100% for all cultural and defense buildings. Cities have to rebel for 10+ turns before coming into yields, and need a courthouse (civ5), or a lot of troops (civ4) to keep it working without suffering from too much punishment.

This is very large difference. Captured cities definitely yield too much in Civ6. I dislike the long rebel time in Civ4 and Civ5, however in Civ6 the yield is just too much.

Suggestions:
1: When you capture a city, all its districts and buildings are pillaged and you need to repair them.
2: The city shall yield 50% as long as it is not ceded and remains in the "captured" status, yield shall be further reduced to 25% if its loyalty is below 75. Currently the "captured " status makes little sense, only granting you 5 additional loyalty for garrison, and -0~10 for grievance,
3: When a city is captured, it shall lose tile. Its territory shall be reduced to only including the 1st ring and its districts, and then start border expansion as a new city.

 

[Hans Castorp]

Good post. Suggestion 3 is particularly interesting.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Interesting idea. I would also suggest a higher-than usual maintenance cost (gold) of the city when it is in the "captured" status (or even after ceded, for a number of turns?) in order to mimic occupation, and indicates that one need proper investment to get the city running. A warmonger should have a tight budget anyway.

 

[agonistes]

I don’t think it matters much.

If you’re domming on standard, you are going to have won before the city contributes respectably either way.

If not domming, you have to wait a few more turns?

You are going to buy any choice real estate.

The problem isn’t the value of the city, its the ease with which they are acquired.

 

[Stilgar08]

Suggestions:
1: When you capture a city, all its districts and buildings are pillaged and you need to repair them.
2: The city shall yield 50% as long as it is not ceded and remains in the "captured" status, yield shall be further reduced to 25% if its loyalty is below 75. Currently the "captured " status makes little sense, only granting you 5 additional loyalty for garrison, and -0~10 for grievance,
3: When a city is captured, it shall lose tile. Its territory shall be reduced to only including the 1st ring and its districts, and then start border expansion as a new city.

Generally speaking: good post. 1.seems counterproductive to me, though. If all districts and buildings are pillaged anyways why wouldn't I shuffle in the pillage card and pillage them for the return before taking the city?

 

[Bibor]

If Firaxis wanted balance (which it doesn't), pillaging yields should be slashed by a significant amount and the effort we should be putting into making our new citizens happy should be more significant. I don't think borders need changing.

 

[hhhhhh]

So technically a city should stop growing before it's ceded but it seems like not happening due to some bug? The interface shows that iirc.

1: When you capture a city, all its districts and buildings are pillaged and you need to repair them.

Is this just encouraging people pillage all districts before conquest? I think you can make that all districts and buildings will need to be repaired, at 1/4 of their production cost, and if you pillaged them, then you will need another 1/4 of their production cost.

 

[bbbt]

I feel like they have some of the tools to make domination more challenging with the existing loyalty system, they just don't use them for fear of upsetting the majority of players who play at a lower level and just want a non-challenging dom parade, and will start complaining as soon as conquered cities flip. They could do it with difficulty scaling though.

Also, I agree getting benefits from captured cities immediately doesn't make a lot of sense. Nor does the fact that all 'occupation' penalties disappear immediately upon wiping out a civ.

Another of the major benefits is simply the ability to heal quickly and purchase troops in a city you just conquered, allowing you to continue your conquest parade more quickly.

Possibilities:

1) Occupied cities don't give the innate +1 amenity
2) Troops can't be purchased in occupied cities (with gold or faith). Troops in the territory of an occupied city heal at 'neutral territory' rate, not friendly territory rate.
3) For human players, additional -5 loyalty penalty per level above Prince in occupied cities (and vice versa for the AI below Prince)
4) Capturing a capital, razing a city, or wiping out a Civ doubles all loyalty penalties for 10 turns in occupied cities of that civ (and cities remain occupied for 10 turns after a civ is wiped out). Capturing/razing could also give like a 5 turn +5 boost to all units of the target civ.

 

[hhhhhh]

3: When a city is captured, it shall lose tile. Its territory shall be reduced to only including the 1st ring and its districts, and then start border expansion as a new city.

I like this, but if the city have n wonders, it should keep 2n extra tiles. And probably 1 extra tile for each districts. With the intension of making city territory connected. Otherwise it's likely to make cities very disconnected.

And, of course, if you liberate city you founded it should not lose tiles (maybe even gain some of the tiles back.)

 

[Archon_Wing]

Probably all of the above for OP, I guess.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Implement an ethnicity mechanic that requires the full integration of new cities. You need to adopt the conquered culture as your own, integrate the citizens over time via assimilation or use brute force to "replace" them with your own culture. Cities receive a harsh penality until they're fully integrated.

Something like that. Bringing back the Puppet mechanic where cities can only repair, create projects or build buildings in already existing districts could also work.

 

[Myomoto]

Implement an ethnicity mechanic that requires the full integration of new cities. You need to adopt the conquered culture as your own, integrate the citizens over time via assimilation or use brute force to "replace" them with your own culture. Cities receive a harsh penality until they're fully integrated.

Something like that. Bringing back the Puppet mechanic where cities can only repair, create projects or build buildings in already existing districts could also work.

I agree a lot with this, even if a real ethnicity mechanic is probably not going to happen before civ VII.

The puppet state should definitely make a return, and should come with much lower loyalty and amenity penalties compared to an occupied or conquered city. Assimilating a conquered city into your empire should take time and effort, and before that point it shouldn't be 100% productive. As a nice bonus, have fully converted cities adopt a new name from the conquerer's city list.

I would also like to see an option to 'sack' a city on defeating it. All districts and their buildings are automatically pillaged (giving their pillage yields), and all the city center buildings are damaged for gold yields - but the city remains under control of the owning civ. It could a nice 'slap on the wrist' instead of outright conquest when you want to punish someone, or just for catapulting yourself forward a bit by pillaging and sacking a neighbor.

 

[PiR]

Very interesting!

Actually I think Civ4 was better than Civ6 on this, with the remaining culture of the civ and possibility of revolt. However, the destruction of a civ (capture of last city) was also making a bigger win than it probably would in real life.

2: The city shall yield 50% as long as it is not ceded and remains in the "captured" status, yield shall be further reduced to 25% if its loyalty is below 75. Currently the "captured " status makes little sense, only granting you 5 additional loyalty for garrison, and -0~10 for grievance,
3: When a city is captured, it shall lose tile. Its territory shall be reduced to only including the 1st ring and its districts, and then start border expansion as a new city.

Agree

4) Capturing a capital, razing a city, or wiping out a Civ doubles all loyalty penalties for 10 turns in occupied cities of that civ (and cities remain occupied for 10 turns after a civ is wiped out). Capturing/razing could also give like a 5 turn +5 boost to all units of the target civ.

Agree

I agree a lot with this, even if a real ethnicity mechanic is probably not going to happen before civ VII.

The puppet state should definitely make a return, and should come with much lower loyalty and amenity penalties compared to an occupied or conquered city. Assimilating a conquered city into your empire should take time and effort, and before that point it shouldn't be 100% productive. As a nice bonus, have fully converted cities adopt a new name from the conquerer's city list.

I would also like to see an option to 'sack' a city on defeating it. All districts and their buildings are automatically pillaged (giving their pillage yields), and all the city center buildings are damaged for gold yields - but the city remains under control of the owning civ. It could a nice 'slap on the wrist' instead of outright conquest when you want to punish someone, or just for catapulting yourself forward a bit by pillaging and sacking a neighbor.

Totally agree. For the last part, I think it actually happened a lot in history, even to Rome!