Carrack and Galleon

[kevincompton]

Would it be unrealistic to make these as both the transport vessels and war vessels of the era?

You see i have the carrack unit as the Portugeuse UU but i named it a Nau. And I want the caravel to be obsoleted by magnetism so i added a galleon. I want the civ3 frigate to come way later and i changed the name to Ship of the Line. So I need a transport and unit so i simply made the Nau and the Galleon do both. Is this innacurate?

 

[Colonel Kraken]

If memory of history serves, I believe it would be completely accurate to use the Galleon in both roles. As ship building technology became more pronounced, however, dedicated warships were built.

 

[kevincompton]

Awesome! Thats just what i wanted to hear! Now does anyone know about the Carrack or "Nau" as my portugeuse friend reffered to? I need to know what strengths i should give it over the galleon.

 

[Louis XXIV]

The Carrack was used long before the Galleon. Henry VIII fought the French with Carracks, while the Spanish Armada was filled with Galleons.

Even though Galleons were used for war, some Spanish Galleons focused too much on cargo transport and weren't as good at defending themselves (I think, its been awhile since I've read or seen anything about this). You might want to consider making two ships, one Galleon for transport, one for combat (perhaps Aaglo's War Galleon or Golden Hind).

 

[aaglo]

Yep, carrack is older than galleon. In fact, Santa Maria was most likely a carrack (Pinta and Niña were caravels). And I think that carracks were in use roughly 100 year before galleons were introduced.

 

[thestonesfan]

Yeah, that would be pretty accurate.

There isn't much difference between a cargo galleon and carrack...most of the ships in the Spanish armada, while called galleons, were more akin to carracks than to the English War Galleons. Before then, warships were basically merchant ships with more cannons.

As CK pointed out, Carracks and Galleons were both transports and warships. The great ships of the line of the later era were basically just huge galleons, with little difference in design. The smaller rate warships, which came to be called frigates, benefitted the most from technological advancements.

Here's the progression I've worked out:

Transport Carrack(Ast.) -> Transport Galleon(Nav.) -> Clipper(Nationalism)

War Carrack(Ast.) -------> War Galleon(Nav.) ------> Frigate(Nationalism)

-----------------------------> Ship of the Line(Mag)

Notes:
*I'd have the caravel precede the Transport Carrack.
*This way, if you also had the Nau, you'd have three ships using the Carrack art. But that would actually be pretty accurate.
*The Ship of the Line would have pack more of a punch than the Frigate, but the Frigate would have more moves and would have the ability to sink the Ship of the Line.
*I just put the normal techs up there, but I would recommend adding a few more. Maybe Ship Building and Naval Tradition. That would give you more options.

 

[LouLong]

In my great armada scenario I have :

some caravels (left over) ---> Carrack --> Galleon (for transport)
and War Galleon ---> Frigate (for attack)
Carrack filling actually both role albeit being not so great in combat.
War Galleon would be indeed a galleon whose space is used not for cargo but for cannons, troops,..

 

[thestonesfan]

Yeah, you could either make two seperate units, or give one unit both abilities. I chose to make two units to keep clear upgrade paths and to help the AI.

Plus, we have the units to do it, for the most part. A new aaglo brand Carrack would be nice though.

 

[kevincompton]

Ok, try me again, i get lost in the unit art vs. different units using same art. Also I do have a lot of different techs. Heres my tech tree:
----->Ship Building
Navigation ---->Magnetism -----| |---->Sea Power
----->Naval Ordnance

Its something like this, I'll have to check at home to be sure(i don't have internet at home temporarily.

Now heres me unit art:
*= firaxis #=Aaglo or some other creator (i think all aaglo though)

Caravel*, Carrack*, Frigate*, Man o war*, Galleon*, War Galleon#, Heavy Frigate#, Schooner#, Ship of the Line*, corsair#

Now i have 3 eras to make this work into. Heres how i have it now, help me make it more accurate:
1st era, Late 15th century

Caravel(nav)----> Galleon (war galleon art, Mag.) Portugeuse get the Nau(carrack art, mag.) both galleon and Nau are warships and transport, not very strong but nothing to compete with them in this era.

2nd Era 16th century

Troop Transport (galleon art) and corsair (fast unit, little use other than recon)(ship build)

Ship of the Line(frigate art) and man o war for english and French Ship of the Line(this is * ship of the line, it has a french fleur so I couldn't bring myself to assign it to anyone else, what do you guys thing? its a dillemma): all naval ordinance


3rd age Industrial

Sloop (schooner art, is this way off?) fast unit light attack, Frigate(Heavy Frigate art):
Both Sea Power.


Ok so with all these ships you can see how it gets confusing. Help me iron this out with your steaming hot expertise. Thanks guys.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I believe someone made a Ship of the Line here that doesn't have the fleur de lis, if you want to have one not too French.

For the Sloop, you have the definition fairly correct. They were smaller ships with less guns. I believe that, in most cases, they were faster than Frigates and Ships of the Line, and were considered an ideal commerce raider. As with most ships, American Sloop of Wars were better than the Brittish Cruiser class brig sloop (because they had normal sails, instead of Brig sails (which required less crew), allowing the American ships to take more damage before becomming too difficult to control).

As for art of the ship, Orthanc is making a Sloop which looks like it fits perfectly.

You might want to consider moving Ships of the Line to the same time as Sloops and Heavy Frigates (in the 1800's, the Brittish had ships that were classified at 100 guns, if it weren't for spending cutbacks in the Jefferson administration, the US would have completed at least one Ship of the Line as well).

 

[aaglo]

Ship of the line by Colonel Kraken
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=832657&postcount=610

 

[dugfromthearth]

as a note - carracks predate Caravels. Carracks were much bigger and more oceanworthy. But they were so big they could not go over sandbars and reefs. Caravels were better for exploring coastlines.

So you can make cost have movement cost of 2, then make caravels and smaller vessels ignore the movement cost of coast. Large ships like carracks and galleons then do well in the ocean but are slow along the coast.

 

[kevincompton]

I don't have a carrack, its a Nau.

 

[aaglo]

Carrack is practically the same thing as nau (nau is just a portuguese carrack).

 

[kevincompton]

Well than I can take that slight innacurracy. Fact is that the Firaxis graphic for a carrack look better than the graphic for the Galleon. Therefore for playablitity it should be a better unit. The name is relative.