Cash Flow Problems

[RickDuzEnuff]

Here is another Civ III noobie issue I am having...Cash Flow issues, likely resulting for either bad slider management or over-building or both.

I am playing a game on Warlord level and the AI is even with me or beating me in the tech race in the late MA. I do have to add the caviat that I have had to fight two semi-short resource wars to obtain horses and iron. Now it looks like I am going to have to do the same to obtain saltpeter. I have more land than anybody, but I got shafted on all of the strategic resources. My problem is that against a smaller civ I am having to fight against superior units. Here is my current cash flow...

This brings up 3 questions...
1. Am I building way too many improvements? This may be likely because I typically build everything in every city. Is there some secret fromula as to what to build where? In the example above, I have a large military, but paying only 33 gpt for them because of Monarchy. Corruption seems typical for the amount of cities/land I have, considering I have built FP and all cities have CHs in them. All of the improvements, and some lux trades, have helped me get "We Love The _____ Day" many times in all of my largest cities.

2. Am I not managing the slider properly during early play? I typically set the slider at 0.10.0 and work the science slider backward as income goes negative, never raising the lux slider. That is what I did in the example above and as you see, at 6.4.0 in the late MA, I am still losing money.

These two questions arise from my desire to have the sliders set at more like 2.7.1 or 3.6.1 and not be losing money...or at least be able to set it there for several turns and not lose my shirt. The third question concerns rescource placement.

3. Am I over developing the land and thus preventing rescources from popping up in my territory? This has to do with why I had to fight two wars and looking to start a third for saltpeter. Horses and iron shouldn't have suffered from over development, because I improve hills last and horses come so early. But could it have anything to do with no saltpeter popping in my neck of the woods?

Any advice or direction to specific articles would be appreciated. I can post a save if that helps.

 

[PaperBeetle]

1. Yes, quite probably. You should choose your victory condition early in the game, and that decision affects which buildings you aim to put in your cities. If you are going to playing a scientific game (20k, space or diplo), developing your cities is important. If you are playing a military VC (conquest, domination or 100k), you need not plan to reach the industrial, and you may want scientific progress to stall as early as Chivalry & Invention. But whether playing a military or scientific VC, by the end of the medieval era, you should still only have the first-tier buildings in your core cities, and your non-core cities should have approximately 0 buildings each. By first tier buildings, I mean granaries, markets, temples, courts, libraries, barracks, harbours, walls and aqueducts. Of those, walls, temples and courts are not usually worth building, and granaries have a very limited but important usage.

2. You should be willing to pay for the luxury spending necessary to keep your core cities working. It is better use of your resources than building religious buildings or employing clowns. Other than that, your approach to the slider seems sensible, especially at lower levels where the AI researches more slowly than the human. Running a treasury deficit is fine as long as you can get cash from the AI to fill the hole. And that is a problem at lower levels, where the AI is bad at making money.

No, it doesn't work like that. Resources are assigned to tiles in the map-creation stage, and become visible when you research the approraet technology. It doesn't make a difference if you have improved the tile, or even changed it to a different terrain type (e.g. when you get Steam, you may find coal has appeared in a grassland tile which was jungle at the start of the game). However, when a resource depletes, it immediately tries to pop up again somewhere else, and it can only do that in a tile which has the correct current terrain type.

 

[vmxa]

I would suspect you have two issue.

1) 400 income
2) 168 maint

I cannot be sure about the first one as I do not know how many towns you have. How much they have been improved, structures and tiles.

I can safely bet, you have too many useless structures in too many places. Go to each town and evaluate each building. Look for things like libs in places that make only a few beakers and are near full size.

Look for too much happiness, due to too many happy buildings, especially in small towns that are not growing. Look for granaries in places that do not have an aqua or a river and do not have much food. Also, if they are at max size and will not be making workers or settlers.

Banks in places that are not netting more than a 1 gold, don't build them in places that will not make 10 net gold, unless you have Smith.

Most structure have a use in better cities, they tend not to be a good investment in lesser towns. Maybe they makes sense, but maybe not right now.

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

Point well taken on the VC decision. To be honest, I have disabled all VCs in this game except conquest and space race, but not made a personal choice as which I was going to try to achieve, so there was no specific goal-oriented strategy of one or the other.

And come to find out, I am ahead in the tech race after all. I was browsing other threads and came across CivAssist II. I installed it and whuddya know, I am two techs ahead. It turns out I am only behind in resources, which is why they got guns. Bear in mind that there are 4 out of 7 civs I have ot met yet either. All I of know of those 4 is they have built wonders.

So I need to decide if I can survive the space race without saltpeter. Going to war with swords, knights, and trebs will suck against gunpowder armed civs. And it still leaves the issue of only being able to achieve 40% or less on the beaker slider. Can I hold the tech lead with that?

 

[undertoad]

So I need to decide if I can survive the space race without saltpeter. Going to war with swords, knights, and trebs will suck against gunpowder armed civs. And it still leaves the issue of only being able to achieve 40% or less on the beaker slider. Can I hold the tech lead with that?

Saltpeter becomes less important with Nationalism, which gives you Riflemen (better than Muskets and don't require Saltpetre). Nationalism is one the first Industrial techs, so you're close to it. Unfortunately you don't get a saltpetre-free attacking unit to replace Cavalry until Armor (Motorized Transportation, way in the future for you right now).

Your enemies with gunpowder-armed units must be getting the saltpetre somewhere - could you not make grabbing the saltpetre your first war objective? Even if bringing it under your control is not a realistic short-term goal, you can start a war by landing units way behind the line and disconnecting the enemy's saltpetre, which will make your life easier in fighting to get it for yourself. (If you don't know where the saltpetre is - see if you can research/trade for Navigation, and trade maps).

PS: good move on CivAssistII - I never play without it!

On the money - vmxa's advice on having too many improvements is probably spot-on. But you're in the late MA; exactly where I am now in my current game - and like you, I've been having a cash-crisis (partly from upgrading loads of Horsemen to Knights - even with Leonardo's, it costs a lot).

I find this stage of the game frustrating, as my citz are getting seriously riotous, I have luxuries to trade, I can see harbours for 10 other civs with loads of luxuries, but I can't trade over ocean yet (Navigation, which I'm researching).

There's a way of making money at this stage which I've dabbled in but haven't had to rely on before: communications-trading. It requires an otherwise useless tech (Printing Press). On this Large/60% water Continents map I'm playing, my sending out of suicide-galleys earlier on means I'm the life-and-soul-of-the-party Civ who's met everyone! And it's surprising what you can get out of the AIs for "contact with the...". At this Regent level, the other civs tend to only have 15-50 gold in their treasury - but they often give me their whole treasury for the first contact traded, and then 2-5gpt for subsequent ones. (Keep Printing Press for yourself until you've traded every communication - this can take a few turns while the AI civs make enough money to pay you!)

 

[Snarkhunter]

So I need to decide if I can survive the space race without saltpeter. Going to war with swords, knights, and trebs will suck against gunpowder armed civs. And it still leaves the issue of only being able to achieve 40% or less on the beaker slider. Can I hold the tech lead with that?

Not necessarily. Muskets can't really attack you & the AI doesn't make much in the way of cannons. Takes a lot of trebs, but you can redline muskets, & knights & MInf don't have much of a problem with them then. Cavalry are more serious, but at least only defend with 3--so hit them hard when you see them, don't let them attack you first. You'll be pitting quantity against quality, maybe, but you should get the better of that deal with enough trebs. Be sure to take your elites leader-fishing, generate MGLs, & build as many armies as you can--build the Pentagon once you have 3 armies in the field & get the option. Adding a 4th unit to an army gives it a lot more staying power.

In the IA, rifles will be a problem if all you have is knights/MInfs. Even 4-unit knight armies (assuming you have MGL's & the Pentagon) will deplete against them. I never bother to research nationalism myself, I go straight for infantry. You may not get the rubber to build them, but you can at least build artillery. (If you don't get rubber or later on, oil for tanks, you do have a problem!)

At any rate, fighting wars to gain resources needn't slow you down--if you are planning on conquest or domination, you'd have to fight them anyways, after all.

kk

 

[Optional]

I was browsing other threads and came across CivAssist II. I installed it and whuddya know, I am two techs ahead... Bear in mind that there are 4 out of 7 civs I have ot met yet either.

You've simply been playing in the dark. One of the first priorities in the game is to meet the other civs and stay informed about them. That way you'll keep track of possible deals you can make. In the screenshot you've uploaded we can read 'Income from other civs: 6 gpt'. I bet if you knew everybody and now and then sold a tech to the highest bidder, this amount would be 60 or 600. Well, 600 is maybe a bit much for Warlord and before Banking, but 6 is too low for a research game.
Sell the AI banking as soon as possible, then they start building banks everywhere and getting richer, and you can rake in more money by selling techs to them.

So I need to decide if I can survive the space race without saltpeter. Going to war with swords, knights, and trebs will suck against gunpowder armed civs. And it still leaves the issue of only being able to achieve 40% or less on the beaker slider. Can I hold the tech lead with that?

Yes, I think you can hold the tech lead with that. If you're researching Steampower > Electricity > Replaceable Parts, and do Scientific Method as well, for the Theory of Evolution, then you'll probably be way ahead of the AI, because the AI almost always researches all the optional techs like Nationalism, Communism, Fascism and Espionage.
40% is slow for a science game, though. I think indeed buildings in the wrong places are clogging up your economy, as well as your lack of trading. Also a government with the commerce bonus would be better for a science game.
Saltpeter would still be handy, I'd say.

 

[Snarkhunter]

So I need to decide if I can survive the space race without saltpeter.

Another option for the salt, if going to war right now is unattractive: trade for it. Make any deal you can, then immediately convert anything that will build to cavalry/cannons--upgrade your knights/trebs ASAP. You can rev up quite an army in 20 turns, especially with upgrades. Of course, the AI may not keep the deal for more than a few turns, which is why you get the upgrades in early. Obviously, this strategy should wait on first getting metallurgy/mil. trad., so you can build the units mentioned.

If you do get a trade, bear in mind that any units in production when the deal ends will finish normally, even though you don't have the resource any more. So on the last turn, if you still need a flock of cavs, make sure to get in one last build in useful cities, even if it takes 10 turns. They'll still complete. I've even bitten the bullet & built a bunch of regulars in cities that had no barracks. I can always use them as rearguards & if I'm careful, I can get them battlefield promotions to vets.

kk

 

[Spoonwood]

My advice: post a save.

I suspect you don't have enough roads, but how would I know?

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

My advice: post a save.

I suspect you don't have enough roads, but how would I know?

Ask and ye shall receive. Keep in mind I am...the uber-noob. And I'll toss in a CA2 question that relates to this. CA2 shows me two techs ahead, but that is 2 ahead of KNOWN civs, correct? In other words, civs I haven't met yet could be ahead of me?

 

[Arexander]

In Warlord it is possible but not quite likely to happen with Continents or Archipelago.

 

[undertoad]

Ask and ye shall receive. Keep in mind I am...the uber-noob. And I'll toss in a CA2 question that relates to this. CA2 shows me two techs ahead, but that is 2 ahead of KNOWN civs, correct? In other words, civs I haven't met yet could be ahead of me?

Thanks for posting a save - I'll have a look at it in a while.

On CA2, yes, you are correct, other civs you don't know could be ahead of you. I can't recall where I saw it - probably somewhere in the CivAssist thread - but I think Ainwood was careful to make CivAssist2 a helper program rather than a cheat; so it doesn't show information that you couldn't possibly know in-game.

 

[undertoad]

I've had a look at your save, and I think there's a simple answer to your cash problems. Like vmxa said, it's too many improvements in cities.

Specifically, I think you're being much too careful about keeping your citizens happy. This means that you have an enormous number of Cathedrals and Colosseums - in some cities, you have both! Cathedrals and Colosseums cost 2 gold per turn each, and I try to avoid building either until I absolutely have to - generally only after I get Sanitation and my cities start growing above size 12.

There's nothing wrong with having unhappy citizens - the problem (civil disorder) only comes when there are more unhappy than happy in a city; other than that, unhappy citizens work just as well as content or happy ones. The only reasons to avoid unhappiness altogether are:

a) To boost your "approval rating" in the demographics - this makes no difference to the actual game, it' just gives you a warm feeling inside when you're No.1
b) To decrease waste by inducing a We Love the [leader] Day, which happens when there are no unhappy citz in a city. Your empire isn't big enough yet to have the kind of catastrophic corruption that makes this something to worry about.

I think you may be trying to avoid having unhappy citizens at all. This isn't necessary, and costs you a lot of money in improvements. It's a good idea to anticipate problems with civil disorder - but at worst, unanticipated civil disorder means you just have to use Entertainers for a few turns until you move military police in, and then build a Colosseum or Cathedral when it's needed. Maintenance on these before they're necessary is wasted money.

Also, I think you have too many Harbors. Sure, they give you more food from the sea, and allow the city to build veteran ships. But they're not necessary (IMHO) unless

1. The city's land tiles are so bad/shield-oriented that the city can't grow effectively without extra seafood; or
2. The city is a good production city, and in a good strategic place to build naval units for a seaborne war. (Also, a well-placed harbor is a place where injured naval units can recover).
3. One harbour on each island, to keep the island connected to your trade network.

I tend to only build one or two harbours, at the extremities of my empire, so that exploring/fighting ships can easily come back to the harbor to recover. You've got a land war on your continent just waiting to be fought, so sea-power (apart from a few units to explore and meet civs) isn't that important right now.

Please don't take offence if I write things that you know already, just ignore what's already known to you. For trade over water, you only need 1 harbour in your empire - it doesn't work on a city-by-city basis like in CivII.

You have 4 luxuries under your control - pretty good considering how much land you control. This makes Marketplaces the best way to keep your citz happy. With 4 luxuries, a Marketplace gives 6 happy faces: that's more than a Cathedral AND Colosseum, and the Marketplace only costs 1gpt rather than 4! If just a Marketplace still leaves unhappy faces, don't worry - as long as there are more Happy than Unhappy, the city will be fine. From a quick survey of your cities, I'd say most of them aren't going to face civil disorder problems until 2-3 cycles of growth have happened - which is a long time.

Far too many Courthouses. They're really not that effective. And you definitely don't need one in cities like Satsuma, close to the capital. Don't get me wrong, I HATE corruption and waste as much as anyone; but Courthouses really generally aren't worth it except in certain circumstances. You'll probably gain more gpt from not having all those Courthouses to maintain (let alone the opportunity cost of building them) than you'll lose from the increased corruption.

Use more Tax and Science specialists. It's an odd thing that cities that really are on the edge of civil disorder (e.g. Hakodate) can often be kept just-happy by ANY specialist, not an entertainer. You make an entertainer, and avoid civil disorder. You turn the entertainer into a Scientist or Taxman, and the citz stay happy! Experiment with this.

Since you're in a tech-race, you could use more specialists in remote cities (a form of "farming"). e.g. Fukushima. Its growth is not going anywhere until the Aqueduct is finished - so take someone off the land to make Science or Tax. The other city on the same island that's building a Library really doesn't need it. Its culture borders have already expanded to allow all squares to be worked, and it's only making 2 Science, meaning the Library will give you +1 science.

I think you should sell your Cathedrals, almost all your Courthouses and most Harbors (obviously having one on the island is important, to keep it connected to the capital), and concentrate on building Marketplaces where you need them (and, of course, mil units for war). Run your cities at the limit of happiness, so that they're e.g. 2 growth cycles (=2 more unhappy citz) away from disorder.

But the return you get from selling improvements is pretty poor. It's a pity to lose those shields you invested in the Cathedrals, Colosseums and Courthouses - but the maintenance costs will just go on crippling you if you keep them. Minimise the loss by timing each sale so that there's a big production-box in the city to be filled with the shields you get from the sale (you get gold as well).

Consider going for Economics after Banking, which gives you the Smith's Trading Co wonder, which will pay for all the Marketplaces and Harbors. And/Or, as insurance against the time when happiness really does become a problem, JS Bach's Cathedral - you've got a nice continent you can spread its effects to by conquest. It's IMHO one of the best wonders in the entire game: 2 unhappy citizens per city become Content, on the entire continent. It needs a backtrack to research Music Theory; but this tech, like Economics, tends to sell well on the tech-trading market. Make sure you don't sell it until your JS Bach production is well under way, otherwise the sneaky AIs will build JS Bach themselves. (Mind you, selling Music Theory to a productive civ on your continent could work - let them build it, and then just conquer it!).

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

Wow Undertoad! Awesome info there, and no offense taken what-so-ever on any of it. As I have stated, I am an uber-noob at Civ III. All of this will make me a better player so that I can join some SGs in the future. I am so jazzed at everything I have read here that I am going to start a new game using my new found knowledge, as well as try to salvage a win on this one.

 

[Optional]

A few more points, RickDuzEnuff:
* Your cities are far apart in this save, resulting in tiles that are not being used. Just north of Kyoto are 8 tiles together that no city is using, and they are decent tiles, so use them by putting a city there!
* The placing of Kagoshima means you couldn't bring irrigation to those wheat tiles. It would have been possible if you had placed the town on one of those hills, as a town can act to channel irrigation. This would have helped early growth there.
* Izumo was not the best pick for building the Forbidden Palace, as the town has so many water tiles, and therefore a low production. The commerce is not waisted in a science game, though.
* You have 26 spearmen, which is way over the top. Even for defense of your own territory attacking units are better, because with them you can deal with invaders in your own turn, rather than waiting to get attacked yourself, or getting pillaged. So build more attackers and less defenders!
* Are you aware that with curraghs and galleys you can chance it on sea and ocean squares? There is a 50% chance your boats will sink each interturn they spend in unsafe waters, but it's worth the risk. To meet the other civs first can give you fantastic trading opportunities.

 

[CommandoBob]

Happiness and Riots
I might be repeating someone here; I'm sorry.

I used to be concerned about the number of unhappy citizens. Now I am not. I am concerned when the unhappy outnumber the happy, but only then. Happy or unhappy, they are working tiles and producing something, either shields or food. As long as the happy counterbalance the unhappy, the city doesn't riot, and riots are bad. No production for that turn and the chance for cranky citizens to destroy improvements.

 

[undertoad]

Glad it was helpful info, RickDuzEnuff!