Cavarly overpowered?

[StuntedAzrael]

Cavarly rush in my opinion is overpowered. In Bts it's pushed back in the technology tree and now it needs rifling. But with that it didn't lose it's power, it was just delayed.

This is how I do it.

Let's say an peaceful empire with 8-10 cities, standard map. 1 city should have heroic epic built courtesy of early barbs (or unsuspecting AI ) preferably the former since I'm builder at heart. 1 city should be a great scientist farm for bulbing. Standard stuff.

This military city should produce Knights as soon as Guilds are aquired. The goal ofc is knights with 2 promos (I usually go for stables). At that time I use only economic civics.

The empire is geared to frantic research. Rifling and Military tradition are the key techs. During that time I try to get money for upgrades either by selling techs or by exporting surplus resources.

After the needed techs are aquired switch to Nationhood & Theocracy. Upgrade knights or curassiers. Start drafting rifles. I love to have 15-20 cavarly atm. Theocracy enables me to whip commerce cities for additional cavarly in addition to the draft. I'm not nice friendly leader.

With cavarly I'll run over any neighbour. Drafted rifles are there only as city garrison. It's very common that to see all AI cities still in revolt after the attack is done. It's that fast. No need for spies or siege.

I have fought against musketmen and longbows in capital cities on hill and over 100% culture defense (Angkor wat + culture) and still had over 50% survival rate.

Only defense that AI can have against this is - Rifling. Everything else is useless. That's why it's so devastating. You only need to have 1 key tech advantage for 10-15 turns and it's all over.

Did I mention that cavarly ignores walls and castles? Pretty apsurd.

Imo cavarly is atm the most powerful standard unit in all game if used propery and timely. No other unit can give you that much power and speed.

Do you agree?

 

[obsolete]

Alright, so this week I have now learned that...

Cavalry are overpowered...
Airships are still overpowered...
Every UU is overpowered...
Any modern unit is overpowered
Any horse unit is over powered..
Any elephant is overpowered (yes that includes the ballista)...


The warriors are overpowered... (what`s with the added city defense!)

And..... I guess we wait for Firaxis to do an entire overhaul then....

 

[assass1n]

Alright, so this week I have now learned that...

Cavalry are overpowered...
Airships are still overpowered...
Every UU is overpowered...
Any modern unit is overpowered
Any horse unit is over powered..
Any elephant is overpowered (yes that includes the ballista)...


The warriors are overpowered... (what`s with the added city defense!)

YOU FORGET
Siege > ALL

 

[oyzar]

Playing against the AI is always going to be silly if you know the game mechanics well enough to leverage the advantages there are. However if there weren't power disperancies between different units and techs there wouldn't be anything to leverage and the game would be way less fun...

 

[StuntedAzrael]

Playing against the AI is always going to be silly if you know the game mechanics well enough to leverage the advantages there are. However if there weren't power disperancies between different units and techs there wouldn't be anything to leverage and the game would be way less fun...

I totally agree with you.

What bothers me is that Cavarly rush doesn't need any unit mixing, advanced tactics, land usage, special promotions. Just whip cavarly, put C2 promotion and kill something. Medeival wars are much more complex than that for example. All you need is rifling advantage for a dozen turns to make this work.

 

[J-man]

Alright, so this week I have now learned that...

Cavalry are overpowered...
Airships are still overpowered...
Every UU is overpowered...
Any modern unit is overpowered
Any horse unit is over powered..
Any elephant is overpowered (yes that includes the ballista)...


The warriors are overpowered... (what`s with the added city defense!)

And..... I guess we wait for Firaxis to do an entire overhaul then....

Especially the amphibious elephants, way overpowered.

 

[oyzar]

I totally agree with you.

What bothers me is that Cavarly rush doesn't need any unit mixing, advanced tactics, land usage, special promotions. Just whip cavarly, put C2 promotion and kill something. Medeival wars are much more complex than that for example. All you need is rifling advantage for a dozen turns to make this work.

Try this tactic against a competent human with engineering and you will find that cavs succumb to massed siege + counter unit(in this case pikes or elephants) just like any other unit...

 

[MkLh]

Cavalry may be extreme powerful in some circumstances (especially if opponent has only defending troops sitting in cities), but what if he has a huge SoD of grenadiers, muskets, cuirrasiers etc.? If you have a stack of 20 cavalry, but the opponent has a stack of 50 grenadiers, it's quite difficult to deal with it even when cavs have +3 power (I had this kind of situation some time ago).

Cannons are more powerful (even overpowered), with them it's possibly to kill AI's huge stacks with small own losses.

 

[oyzar]

I've even managed to beat cavs on the offensive(meaning i was attacking against cavs) against a human opponent. What wonders a bit of cooperation and production advatage can do(my best unit were grens, i also had some pikes and cats).

 

[Tephros]

They'd probably be overpowered if rifles didn't get a +25% bonus versus them. It seems balanced to me. They are the most effective hit and run land unit. Well, gunships have a lower withdrawal chance but obscene range so it's arguable.

Cavarly rush in my opinion is overpowered. In Bts it's pushed back in the technology tree and now it needs rifling. But with that it didn't lose it's power, it was just delayed.

It definitely wasn't balanced when it didn't require rifling, but riflemen are a resourceless unit that are a good counter to cavalry in a defensive position, though cavalry are better in the open field, since pinch is easier to get to than formation.

This military city should produce Knights as soon as Guilds are aquired. The goal ofc is knights with 2 promos (I usually go for stables). At that time I use only economic civics.

Cavalry would generally utilize different promos than knights though. Both are high base strength units meant for the open field, but unlike knights, cavalry start with a high withdrawal chance. Most cavalry are going to be promoted to flank II or pinch, else combat, maybe a couple with formation to counter other mounted units, though a rifle would do better in that role, generally a level 4 pikeman upgraded to rifle. Assuming tech parity, you're not going to be building many pinch and flanking knights, pinch maybe if you're fighting ethiopians with gunpowder, but flanking knights aren't very effective.

The empire is geared to frantic research. Rifling and Military tradition are the key techs. During that time I try to get money for upgrades either by selling techs or by exporting surplus resources.

On pangea maps sometimes I use liberalism to get rifling or military tradition when going for domination.

After the needed techs are aquired switch to Nationhood & Theocracy. Upgrade knights or curassiers. Start drafting rifles. I love to have 15-20 cavarly atm. Theocracy enables me to whip commerce cities for additional cavarly in addition to the draft. I'm not nice friendly leader.

That strategy is probably not as effective on huge maps and marathon settings, which is what I usually play on. I typically settle great generals and build west point to continue to use economic civics while pumping out 3 promo units. Though flanking II + tactics + leadership makes a great warlord unit on a cavalry. 90% withdrawal, which means you can do battles you're only somewhat likely to win and make huge gains in further great general points, or withdraw and only gain 2 points.

With cavarly I'll run over any neighbour. Drafted rifles are there only as city garrison. It's very common that to see all AI cities still in revolt after the attack is done. It's that fast. No need for spies or siege.

I have fought against musketmen and longbows in capital cities on hill and over 100% culture defense (Angkor wat + culture) and still had over 50% survival rate.

Well the survival rate could easily be a minimum of 60% even if you have zero chance of killing the unit with flanking cavalry. But a 60% chance of survival isnt' very good IMO. Anything less than 90% will be an expensive war. The problem is if your enemy has a lot of units at tech parity, your stack wouldn't measure up as well as CRIII rifles from upgraded maces combined with cannons or artillery. Your strategy does sound fast and therefore appropriate for a final push to victory on a standard or smaller map, but also very expensive compared to sacrificing 1 or 2 siege units to take a city, as opposed to 4 or 5 cavalry if they have a larger number of units.

Did I mention that cavarly ignores walls and castles? Pretty apsurd.

Well mature cities are going to have probably 60% defense at this point anyway. Assuming your enemy has musketmen and pikemen or veteran longbows on hills, it's not an absurd sort of advantage.

Imo cavarly is atm the most powerful standard unit in all game if used propery and timely. No other unit can give you that much power and speed.

Do you agree?

I think infantry are the most powerful standard unit of the game because of how piteously they crush the preceding generation of gunpowder units. Though in the non-ideal situation where your enemy has infantry and you don't, flanking cavalry can stop them given production parity and open fields.

 

[Bleys]

Imo cavarly is atm the most powerful standard unit in all game if used propery and timely. No other unit can give you that much power and speed.

Do you agree?

Not exactly.

The bottom line is ANY unit is "overpowered" vs more archaic units. Axemen can run through a bunch of AIs on Prince and below. Rifles will always own Longbows. Cavalry can mow through non-Gunpowder units of any kind, even Pikemen. Infantry are godly vs Rifles and Grens.

Also remember, at some levels, its not always possible to get that "window" you talk about. I have gone for Assembly Line before MT many times because the AI was already in a military tech advantage, and Infantry are a great equalizer. I have also gone for MT much earlier myself, and used Curissars instead of Cav, and not built many Cav at all.

Like so many of these "be-all, end-all" statements about Civ IV, the actual answer is "It Depends".

Alright, so this week I have now learned that...

Everyone uses hyperbole, mate, its one of those "basic truths of the human condition". We have all "discovered" new tactics that worked so incredibly well we "think" its overpowered. Cut the n00b's a little slack, it wasnt so long ago I was posting a thread named "Chu's are overpowered", heh. After many Emperor+ games since, I realize that yes, at lower levels, a Chu bee-line is incredibly strong, as are a gazzillion other tactics that dont quite stand up at higher levels, but without those 3 qualifier words, it not an accurate statement at all.

 

[oyzar]

Warriors are certainly overpowered on prince and below. Any unit from axemen and later are overpowered on emperor and below if you see it that way... Praetes, quechas and immortals are all overpowered against tha AI on any level...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The most powerful standard unit in the game, given its time, is almost unquestionably the war elephant. Available at HBR/Construction in BTS, elephants have no TRUE counter until engineering. That's...a long time!

Vanilla cavalry was the same though. Unbelievably early for its strength, a decent # of whipped cavalry could be big trouble. Don't forget, though, that the AI had greater bonuses back then also.

As it is now, I don't think it's too bad. It requires an extra tech beyond what just rifles require, and rifles not only compete but counter cavalry in most scenarios (and can be drafted). I think the BTS changes (including leaving a capable but not overwhelming unit in place of where the cavs used to be) balanced cavalry quite nicely. Muskets were given some viability with later grenadiers too.

Few things in this game are actually overpowered. The AP victory, maybe .

 

[Bleys]

Few things in this game are actually overpowered. The AP victory, maybe .

And HC, and the GLH on island maps, and a couple UUs on non-island maps (Darius/Fract is my current offline game, talk about overpowered, LOL)

 

[oyzar]

Nothing beats warriors on small settler maps, no other units can be built from the start or for the cheap cost, and that is the only thing that matters ...

 

[Ai Shizuka]

I'm jumping on the Jumbo bandwagon here. Almost game-breaking, imo, considering the resource needed. Countering a jumbo-based attack without ivory is, well, hard.


edit: followed by early cuirassiers.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm jumping on the Jumbo bandwagon here. Almost game-breaking, imo, considering the resource needed. Countering a jumbo-based attack without ivory is, well, hard.

By a human maybe. Vs the AI you just mash some catapults into their offensive SoD and then anything will pretty much destroy them. One of the rare situations I'll give siege drill after the first few barrages hit, since drill is the lone promotion that still helps siege to survive/win in the field.

As they don't have defensive bonuses they're quite terrible at withstanding counterattacks SoD to SoD. I will frequently try to cut the AI stack down in my territory before going on the offensive (and if they don't have a SoD it's probably a softie like gandhi), so this isn't even very different from a typical warmonger move.

 

[oyzar]

Cats + spears beat jumbos just fine...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Cats + spears beat jumbos just fine...

I was thinking of them mixed in a stack though. It's unlikely you'll have the jumbo defending vs a spear in such a scenario, making axes, swords, or in some cases even horse archers have better odds.

 

[oyzar]

Horse archers won't have better odds, but yes obviously you need a lot of cats and a production advantage or at least equality when fighting off phants on the defensive, but it is certainly not impossible...
(oh and do get on msn )