Caveman 2 Cosmos

[tmv]

Instead those units should be built faster if you have a certain resource.

Would that really be a restriction? At that point units usually don't take that long to build, and if you can just ignore resources, you lose a big part of the game. It would be even worse with resources that are the result of a complex chain (especially in the later eras, but even e.g. Iron Wares comes to mind). Right now it is a bit of an achievement to reach it, and since the resource is often really powerful, it is also a strong reward. But if players can just ignore them (and resource producing buildings often have strong mali), it would be like taking resources completely out of the game. I really don't think that would be a good idea.

The resource system also is one of the really strong aspects of this mod for builder-type players, and it would be really sad if they were left off with - almost - less than vanilla, perhaps even less than CivV.

 

[retired]

Can one make gunpowder without sulfur? If there's an alternative method, then instead, we should enable that alternative in the supply chain IMO.

Otherwise, I see the problem as there is no sulfur nor means to access it rather than allowing something to be without it, despite it being required in RL. That said, a world without gunpowder would be somewhat interesting to see how that would play out. Mapmakers gotta watch out for this sort of thing as well. As an alternative, or perhaps another measure that could protect against this, if it really is to be viewed 'game-breaking' and not just an intriguing alternate scenario that can play out, we could make it a little easier on us as mod designers by ensuring there are
buildings available that generate sulfur.

I say this just to propose a few alternatives to addressing supply chain problems rather than just making the game capable of ignoring a rational supply requirement.

How manny e.g. iron deposits exist on our planet and how manny on a map in CivIV?

The ressorces on a map in CivIV can be seen as huge deposits but there are lots of smaller ones all over the place. If you would control such a huge deposit you get an producton bonus. Without you can still train and build all kinds of things.

That would solve lots of issues like a bad starting location ruining a game and force players to start a new game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

How manny e.g. iron deposits exist on our planet and how manny on a map in CivIV?

The ressorces on a map in CivIV can be seen as huge deposits but there are lots of smaller ones all over the place. If you would control such a huge deposit you get an producton bonus. Without you can still train and build all kinds of things.

That would solve lots of issues like a bad starting location ruining a game and force players to start a new game.

In those cases where something is much more common and prevalent than it seems in the game, I feel buildings that can be injected that can show that prevalence is more appropriate. If there's iron in nearly all places on Earth, then a building that simply requires a mine within city vicinity that produces Iron sounds reasonable.

What this boils down to is a belief that if a civ doesn't have access to something it should mean it really doesn't have any of it at all. Nothing should be assumed to be too prevalent to always exist.

I agree that a more impressive volumetric system is still needed to deliver the variation you're pointing at though.

 

[Yudishtira]

That said, a world without gunpowder would be somewhat interesting to see how that would play out. As an alternative, or perhaps another measure that could protect against this, if it really is to be viewed 'game-breaking' and not just an intriguing alternate scenario that can play out, we could make it a little easier on us as mod designers by ensuring there are buildings available that generate sulfur.

I don't think the alternate scenario works, because then you would have to build ships and aircraft and artillery still using ballistae, trebuchets and naphtha throwers... Even the scenario where you don't have and can't buy the resource is already a bit broken by these considerations. Of course you could make all these alternate subcombats, but it's a huge amount of work and bloat for very little gain.

Imo the building that generates sulphur is the way to go. But it should only be available if there is no sulphur on the entire map. I was thinking every civ could get an autobuild if this is so, which could be a prereq for the building.

 

[Thunderbrd]

But it should only be available if there is no sulphur on the entire map.

Why that? Because then there gets to be too much injected into the game? I'm not sure what filters we can use for the building but we may want to dig a little to get some idea. I mean, something that makes it more common should work, like anywhere something related to sulphur exists then we can assume this sulphur generating building should be possible, like wherever there is Obsidian (representing volcanic activity) could be one basis for it. Obviously volcanoes could be an OR prereq. I think there are a lot of other similar kinds of justifications that could make it common but not overwhelming.

I don't think the alternate scenario works, because then you would have to build ships and aircraft and artillery still using ballistae, trebuchets and naphtha throwers...

There are real world examples of tech development being stalled out due to a lack of a resource - such as the lack of horses on the Americas for example. A player might feel screwed over by this but that's part of the way things really are sometimes.

 

[Yudishtira]

Why that? Because then there gets to be too much injected into the game?

Should we have the concept of competing and conquesting and wheeler-dealing for strategic resources, or should they be available by magic? If the answer to that isn't obvious, something weird is going on.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Should we have the concept of competing and conquesting and wheeler-dealing for strategic resources, or should they be available by magic? If the answer to that isn't obvious, something weird is going on.

Well, if players are going to feel that they should be able to assume they should be capable of getting a resource, then it becomes a finer balance to try to ensure that sometimes it's a little difficult as opposed to it's always there or its potentially not possible at all. I wouldn't say it would be valid to activate the potential for something because something else never found its way into the game for some reason, but I can empathize with needing to make access only somewhat more prevalent rather than being found everywhere.

Your point is made with salt collection buildings being available in all coastal cities making salt perhaps TOO easy to derive. I feel SOMETHING needs to be done to diminish those a bit - not sure what can be done to limit them further though. Is it really possible that salt can be collected from everywhere the ocean meets land or is there something more that's needed somehow?

 

[jshetley]

You may as well not play with complex traits and developing leaders though since it takes over 250000 to get the first one. That is WAY WAY too much. Will not get one until modern era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You may as well not play with complex traits and developing leaders though since it takes over 250000 to get the first one. That is WAY WAY too much. Will not get one until modern era.

Is that what it takes for you? Strange... what settings create this? I would have to assume you start with positive traits at least? (That and you'd be surprised how much you amass before even Ancient era.)

 

[jshetley]

Is that what it takes for you? Strange... what settings create this? I would have to assume you start with positive traits at least? (That and you'd be surprised how much you amass before even Ancient era.)

I needed 264000 points to get 1st trait when game started. I went with complex traits, developing leaders and pure traits. I have 2 positive traits and 1 negative one that I started the game with, but will not get to choose anything else for a very long time.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I needed 264000 points to get 1st trait when game started. I went with complex traits, developing leaders and pure traits. I have 2 positive traits and 1 negative one that I started the game with, but will not get to choose anything else for a very long time.

Yeah, it's probably a better choice to go without positive traits to start - you get to earn those first 2 selections. With the setting you're on, you're skipping them and thus you have to wait for a long time to get to your first selection. The main reason to play without start with no positive traits is if you like leaders to always have the traits they were set to default to. On Complex Traits, there's not been full support yet integrated to perfect leader default traits anyhow and thus many of the trait selections are not yet represented as leader default picks.

 

[jshetley]

Yeah, it's probably a better choice to go without positive traits to start - you get to earn those first 2 selections. With the setting you're on, you're skipping them and thus you have to wait for a long time to get to your first selection. The main reason to play without start with no positive traits is if you like leaders to always have the traits they were set to default to. On Complex Traits, there's not been full support yet integrated to perfect leader default traits anyhow and thus many of the trait selections are not yet represented as leader default picks.

I started another game and went with start without positive traits and the culture points needed was only just over 2000. Much better. Now I have to decide which traits to take and that will tough. All of those traits look very nice.

 

[Loffas]

Hi. Have you developers been thinking about adding some civs from the sparths mod mod, civilization mega pack, to the main c2c mod?
I use it now, and yes there are some tags that are wrong or missing because it is a bit old. But I do not think it would be so hard to add/fix it though.
One of the things that are not up to date is the culture human, perhaps more.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hi. Have you developers been thinking about adding some civs from the sparths mod mod, civilization mega pack, to the main c2c mod?
I use it now, and yes there are some tags that are wrong or missing because it is a bit old. But I do not think it would be so hard to add/fix it though.
One of the things that are not up to date is the culture human, perhaps more.

It may be that that mod mod needs to be turned into an optional modular mod. Art will be the problem with including it as a module but if we can update it to modular then there will be no need for the duplicates it seems to have eg human.

 

[retired]

It may be that that mod mod needs to be turned into an optional modular mod. Art will be the problem with including it as a module but if we can update it to modular then there will be no need for the duplicates it seems to have eg human.

The number of civilizations in C2C had to be reduced because things like the leaderhead art take too much memory. The amount of reported memory allocation failures was reduced after those civilizations where removed. They had been modular before as well that doesn't make a difference because the bts.exe can see these art files even if the module is turned off.

 

[billw2015]

The number of civilizations in C2C had to be reduced because things like the leaderhead art take too much memory. The amount of reported memory allocation failures was reduced after those civilizations where removed.

I noted from a thread on FPKs from a while back that it is recommended to keep leader heads out of the FPKs for precisely this reason. Was this approach tried back then?
Obviously I can't vouch for it, but I guess it could be tested quite easily now we have the scripts.

/edit: Sorry, maybe modular implies not in FPKs?

 

[raxo2222]

I noted from a thread on FPKs from a while back that it is recommended to keep leader heads out of the FPKs for precisely this reason. Was this approach tried back then?
Obviously I can't vouch for it, but I guess it could be tested quite easily now we have the scripts.

/edit: Sorry, maybe modular implies not in FPKs?

Modular means in modules, so not in FPKs.
Art anywhere in Caveman2Cosmos folder is loaded, so it doesn't matter if some art is packaged or not.

 

[billw2015]

Modular means in modules, so not in FPKs.

I don't really know anything about modules, why could a module not also have an FPK? Does it only load them from the Assets root?

Art anywhere in Caveman2Cosmos folder is loaded, so it doesn't matter if some art is packaged or not.

I knew it was indexed, its surprising that it actually loads it all into memory even when not referenced!
My recent tests showed memory usage on late game was quite reasonable (at least on first round after loading) at around 2GB. I wasn't going to look into it further, but if it is stopping you from adding more content I can put it on my list of things to investigate.

 

[retired]

I don't really know anything about modules, why could a module not also have an FPK? Does it only load them from the Assets root?


I knew it was indexed, its surprising that it actually loads it all into memory even when not referenced!
My recent tests showed memory usage on late game was quite reasonable (at least on first round after loading) at around 2GB. I wasn't going to look into it further, but if it is stopping you from adding more content I can put it on my list of things to investigate.

We don't know what the bts.exe does with those files if it sees them.
The terrain art from the space mod for example takes memory even if those space terrains aren't present on the map you are playing which it really should not.
At around ~2.6GB of memory usage the game starts to put out memory allocation errors.

 

[raxo2222]

I don't really know anything about modules, why could a module not also have an FPK? Does it only load them from the Assets root?

I'm not sure, but I guess FPK file would be loaded here too.